Why are Warforged so bad?

[Felon]

This is one arguement that makes me think people who are making said arguement don't really understand what's going on. Living constructs has long been a staple of fantasy. It's not Data. There's not computer or AI running the thing. It's just a rock. There's no brain inside, just a rock! They're animated by a spirit, by magic, by something making them ALIVE....

Understand, that distinction that looms large for to you is just hair-splitting to others. It looks like an android, walks like an android, has the immunities of an android, has the angst of an android....

Whether or not it's magic or microchips, it's six or a half-dozen unless the distinction is palpable in some way and not just a mcguffin for bridging genres.

At the risk of sending you into a deserved apoplectic fit, your facile dismissal of the objections others raised and a dime would not get me a gumball from a gumball machine.

Well, it was sufficient to rile at least one pedant, and I suppose that makes it all worthwhile. Just from a quick lookup of your own recent posts, it would seem that the ratio of constructive commentaries to "facile dismissals" of others' opinions leans markedly towards the latter side of the scales, Mr. Pot.

Others rightfully pointed out that certain classes either have inherent, persistent immunities (e.g., the paladin) or can achieve temporary immunities via spells.

Immunities gained from either class or racial features are quite rare, and in fact the paladin's immunity to disease and fear is actually a notable exception that proves that rule. Naturally, over time immunites become very common, but KM's objections pertained specifically to lower level characters. And of coourse, achieving temporary immunities via spells goes back to the challenge-affecting difference between passive immunity and actively consuming resources.

 

[fanboy2000]

It's at the low levels the warforged with that feat is probably better than other fighters. Later on, it doesn't matter that much, so it's kind of unfair to say that it cost him only one of 18 feats.

I've seen warforged at lower levels, their about equal. They don't hit quite as often, but their great for soaking up attacks.

It's perfetly fair to say that Adamantine Body is only one of 18 feats. At 2nd level a warforge fighter has 3 feats, that's 200% more than any other class but monk. Lots of feats, even thouse in the PHB, aren't useful at higher levels. The damage reduction granted by Adamantine Body will be useless at higher levels, but don't tell me an aditional +6 to AC isn't.

 

[Ds Da Man]

It's one limit. Another, more substantial limit, is what the group(s) you game with is going to agree upon as acceptable without bickering. Personally, as a player I don't like to sell my DM off of bad rules that are canon in favor of a house rule, and as a DM I don't like the converse situation of players dissatisfied with bad canon that I don't feel like house-ruling. It's a lot more convenient to have good source material up front than it is to make lots of half-assed, off-the-cuff, improvised rules. YMMV.

But is really that off you feel that allowing this race would wreak havoc on your game? Come on, it's not really that bad, unless all your plots are around poisoning or gas attacks. And I don't know about your group, but ours bicker over crap all the time. With new game books coming out all the time, it gets more and more ridiculous.
I know you don't like the WF, so don't allow it! If you do want it, allow it. Stop whining and crying about balance all the time and just enjoy D&D for what it was meant to be, an imaginative game, based on fictional characters, that fight fantastic monsters, and spawns creativity from its players!

 

[fanboy2000]

But if the major story arc involves yuan-ti and a nest of spiders and drow, well...the Warforged character will probably feel especially powerful when compared to all these guys who have to keep saving.

You know, I understand exatly what your talking about. If I only had one shtick as a DM, I'd be upset with a race that was immune to it too.

 

[Flyspeck23]

I've seen warforged at lower levels, their about equal. They don't hit quite as often, but their great for soaking up attacks.

It's perfetly fair to say that Adamantine Body is only one of 18 feats. At 2nd level a warforge fighter has 3 feats, that's 200% more than any other class but monk. Lots of feats, even thouse in the PHB, aren't useful at higher levels. The damage reduction granted by Adamantine Body will be useless at higher levels, but don't tell me an aditional +6 to AC isn't.

Oh no, I won't. And I think warforged and their feats are pretty much balanced. I just wanted to point out that adamantine body can't be considered too good just because it's only one of 18 feats.

 

[Flyspeck23]

I know you don't like the WF, so don't allow it! If you do want it, allow it. Stop whining and crying about balance all the time and just enjoy D&D for what it was meant to be, an imaginative game, based on fictional characters, that fight fantastic monsters, and spawns creativity from its players!

So in your opinion there's no need to argue about balance?

If any single race or class was IMO considerably better than the others, to a point where that class or race would dominate the party, I sure would like to talk about it, if only to see if my POV would be verified or not.

 

[Storm Raven]

It's perfetly fair to say that Adamantine Body is only one of 18 feats. At 2nd level a warforge fighter has 3 feats, that's 200% more than any other class but monk. Lots of feats, even thouse in the PHB, aren't useful at higher levels. The damage reduction granted by Adamantine Body will be useless at higher levels, but don't tell me an aditional +6 to AC isn't.

Of course it isn't an additional +6 AC, its +6 to AC instead of wearing armor. At higher levels, just about everty fighter will be able to easily afford better aqrmor than the warforged, for a very modest investment of their total wealth.

 

[Storm Raven]

Different is bad. Different requires special thought, special consideration, special preparation, special attention. They hog the spotlight and demand to be paid attention to because they're so dramatically different.

Sorry, that's still a very inconvincing argument. If your DM skills are so feeble that "different is bad" is an insurmountably tough challenge for you, then maybe you shouldn't be behind the screen. The warforged have some immunities that make them impervious to some attacks and tactics, but their nature is readily apparent to everyone. Intelliegent enemies should have a grab bag of attacks designed to exploit their weaknesses.

Heck, the biggest vulnerability to the warforged is that except for a handful of times, their AC is outstripped by most "tank" types of other races. Hit them with damage dealing creatures, that's easy.

 

[IcyCool]

Now you can hide behind the actual text of the message, but I honestly belive that ARandomGod is saying that warforged can't improve their AC beyond the warforged feats.

Well, if you honestly believe that, then nothing I'm going to say will convince you, and only ARandomGod can correct your assumption.

Oh and about that +6 diffrence. Composit Plating is +2, Adamantine Body is +8. As ThirdWizard said, it's only the price of a feat. One feat in a class that gets 18. (11 bonus feats plus 7 regular feats.)

So, for the price of a feat, the warforged fighter gets to have armor that is worse than what a fighter of any other race could have purchased. And without the feat, the warforged fighter is really getting hosed.

I'm pointing out that it is a disadvantage of the Warforged.

 

[ARandomGod]

Mithral Body gives you +5 armor bonus with max dex of +5, -2 ACP, ASF 15%, and counts as light armor.

Adamantine Body gives you +5 armor bonus with max dex of +1, -5 ACP, ASF 35%, counts as heavy armor, and gives DR 2/adamantine.

So yes, full plate of inferior adamantine... but not by much. Especially considering you are never caught without it. And you can get it at first level for a feat, which is really great for fighters who, as I said, get tons of feats.

The main (only?) advantage of adamantine armor is it's DR. Heavy armors get 3, meduim get two... I'd say that the special materials 'cost' should be considered to be only 10,000 like that of medium armors.

Still, it IS a lot of gold to give out at first level. But come medium levels and you're sure wishing you'd paid in gold for it.

It's nice that you can sleep in it (well, you don't sleep, but same thing), and that's almost worth a feat (like endurance), but your first level feat?

Maybe a fighter feels the bite less, even they feel it, and any nonfighter feels the hit pretty hard. AND it's restrictive. It can't be any type of armor. I'd personally want mithril full plate.

But better yet, IMO, would be for it to not cost a feat, and for them not to come with armors, but to be able to buy better armors later on like more normal characters. Along with the ability to take said armor off... you could make the time to take off the armor much, much higher, like 8 hours.

But said warforged can buy a higher AC.

That's never been in debate. It's also irrelevant to my point. He can't buy better armor. Anyone can buy better AC. Anyone can make the armor they have better by enchanting it. Anyone ELSE can also buy better armor.

+7 is a respectible armor bonus depending on the class and how the player chooses to fight.

Sure. Depending on circumstances. So what you're saying is that anyone with the exact perfect class and choice of play can be fine, while everyone else is screwed to varying degrees? That's my point too, you know. ~_^

Forgoing Adamantine Body means they can have an decent dex bonus. Enter Gloves of Dexterity, and they're better than an armor bonus because they add to your touch AC, and helps you hit with a ranged weapon. Oh, and if you have weapon finesse then it can add to your attack with a light weapon. Of course, if all you want to do is be harder to hit, you can't go wrong with a cloak of displacment.

Oh, and then there's the small matter of shields. Really, do you want me to go into detail about the diffrent shields and shield bonuses warforged have acess to?

I don't understand... are you implying that other races don't have acess to these items? If not, then why are you pointint out that the warforged does have acess to them?

It seems to me that ARandomGod made a poor feat selection for his character type. (I do it all the time.) And now thinks the feat is bad period.

Actually I think I made the best choice from the options available to me for the character, considering his planned carrerr path, the point buy stat distribution he has, etc. On the other hand, I also think that it was a large liability for the race to have the expenditure of a feat be its only method of getting full plate ever.

On the other hand, mostly I'm pointing this (limited options, limited viability) out as an additional balance cost. I'm pretty sure the game designers intended this to be a part of the cost (if they didn't, I think they considered very poorly). It's a big cost, and it should be factored in any discussion of the races balance.

I DO think that it's a bad feat, in that I think that it's not worth the price of a feat in general. But, since I consider it a cost of playing the warforged, I don't consider it bad from that perspective (well, I really think it could have been designed more flexibly without taking away from it's cost).

However, I'm curious, ARandomGod, what do you want for your character? You mentioned Mithral Full-Plate, why? Do you want the higher dex bonus? Increased mobility? Maybe there's another way to work this out within the rules as written.

Higher dex would be nice later, for those gloves of dex that you meantioned. Mostly for the higher mobility, he'll have levels of Barb so he'd get +10 speed in medium armor. My character is going high strength Barb2/fighter2/sorc/Dragon Disciple.
I think that there's an enchantment in Arms and Equipment that might make it better (lighter) armor... at least I've heard rumors. I don't know anything about the cost nor do I know if I could talk the GM of that campaign into allowing something from A&E.

He's only got a 28 point buy, so the higher dex doesn't mean *much* ... and compared to the Mithril Body feat, It would just cost more to get less AC going that route, although it would give a better reflex save, of course.

I think that it might be within the power of a limited wish, as it would be effectively lowering the gold piece value of existing equipment (altering the adamantine to mithril), as opposed to creating an item or increasing the value of an item. However, it would be increasing the value to the character, so a full wish might be needed... (But would it be worth the cost?)

Some other way to work it out would be great, but I can't think of any.

For the price of a feat, the warforged can have better armor than the fighter for cheaper, though.

Of course, but how much would you pay for a feat? I believe it *starts* at 10K, and goes up from there. AND that uses a magic item slot. So the warforged can get a jump on the non warforged cashwise, but in the end he'll discover he's really just bought the shaft. Which, IMO, is what was meant. The race is supposed to be better at lower levels, and worse at highter levels.

Now you can hide behind the actual text of the message, but I honestly belive that ARandomGod is saying that warforged can't improve their AC beyond the warforged feats. Read this quote and tell me he's not talking about AC:

Naw, I'm just saying you can't get better armor. For some, Mithril full plate is better armor than Adamantine full plate.

I know and knew that you can enhance the existing armor... and that there are other ways to get armor class improvement (Luck bonus, insight bonus, deflection bonus, shield bonus, natural armor bonus, etcetera). But you're stuck with one of those three armor choices. That's what I think is bad. You also have to pay a feat, to essentially start out at first level with no feat selection, if you want to ever wear better than leather armor. That part I see as a racial cost. But I think that for the feat you have to spend there should be more flexibility... you should be able to select specail material, then select armor type. Perhaps limit the materials you can select, if you want to keep druids out of the race.

There it is. He's implyed that a warforged's AC will not go up and that you cannot purchace more AC. Again, you can hide behind the actual text, but why else would a character want to by armor if not to increase his AC?

In that I just meant that unless you're in a campaign where you'll never get adamantine armor, or mithril armors... a campaign where you'll never have access to any special materials to enchant, or perhaps won't have access to the gold needed to purchase those materials. There I was mainly stating that unless you're playing in a game where a first level feat that says essentially "you gain 12000 gold" is a good feat, then this feat isn't really very good, value wise.

Oh and about that +6 diffrence. Composit Plating is +2, Adamantine Body is +8. As ThirdWizard said, it's only the price of a feat. One feat in a class that gets 18. (11 bonus feats plus 7 regular feats.)

Well, it's the price of a general feat, which can make a difference even to a fighter... and stating that it's only 1/18th of your total feats is implying that every warforged who'd want to take that feat is a fighter. Unfortunately this is a race, and not a class issue. Even if their 'favored' class is fighter, I've never seen anyone play a fighter warforged (Beyond two levels). To be fair, I haven't seen a lot of warforged played yet, so far only 5. But none of them has taken fighter beyond two levels.

And, another main point I was making, is the effective cost/benifit of the feat. By the time you've gotten 18 feats, you'd really much rather have bought the armor in gold than spent a feat. Feats cost more than 2/3 adamantine full plate.

Understand, that distinction that looms large for to you is just hair-splitting to others. It looks like an android, walks like an android, has the immunities of an android, has the angst of an android....

Whether or not it's magic or microchips, it's six or a half-dozen unless the distinction is palpable in some way and not just a mcguffin for bridging genres.

But to someone who's "against androids" it's a significant distinction. I mean, just becuase they can't imagine the concept as different, doesn't mean it's not different. There are people who don't think that there should be much magic in fantasy games either.

And it doesn't have the angst of an android... angst (emotions) are reserved for constructs imbued with a soul. Souls are very, very palpable. It's not my fault if some people can't grasp the difference. Sure, people will get confused. They'll try to make AI viruses to 'infect' the construct. And there's one difference. A construct is not actually programmed. There's no brain or hardware or software. There's just a rock, and a stick of wood, and this crystal dragonshard.

Heck, I've seen pure magic written as science fiction. People can do anything. Doesn't really stop that this effect is very different than robotics and programming.

It's one limit. Another, more substantial limit, is what the group(s) you game with is going to agree upon as acceptable without bickering.

Ah yes, indeed that IS the main limit, isn't it?