Why are Warforged so bad?

[Ace]

By the time the character has 18 feats, his adamantine body will look pale in comparison.
It's at the low levels the warforged with that feat is probably better than other fighters. Later on, it doesn't matter that much, so it's kind of unfair to say that it cost him only one of 18 feats.



Indeed.

yes very true.

One thing though Ebberon is a fundamentally low level setting. There are very few if any High Level NPC's and I think most adventuring parties aren't expected to hit levels above maybe 12 anyway

Looked at fromt eh terms of of the world they were designed for Warforged are on teh strong side

If the AC is an issue (because your group plays a lot of 15+ lvl games) just come up with a feat OR 3 to add AC

a fighter (which most Warforged are) usually has plenty of feats anyway

JMO but a warforged fighter with a magic light shield, a level or 2 of barbarian and the rest fighter who has whirling frenzy, 2 weapons feats (including 2 wpn defense) and a decent Dex sounds like a killing machine (pun intended) to me -- even in a higher than Ebberon standard level game YMMV

 

[ARandomGod]

Don't worry - there won't be any.

Man, I have to agree with this. Sure, they do indeed have a list of immunities a mile long. I still had to look long and hard to find something, ANYthing that I'd be willing to play as one of that race. Their list of suck (or occasional mediocrity) is just that long too.

As for anyone who really thinks that there *might* be a problem, I say this. Forget for the moment all your concerns, other than a warning to the player considering the race that you might have to make him change characters later, and play it as written, and don't alter your game really... and see what happens. Personally I'm completely in support of the faction that thinks that if it's going to ruin their game they should make house rules to prevent it... on the other hand, I'm also for substantial playtesting to see what *really* needs and doesn't need altering before mucking about with altering the class, race, or rule.

Don't forget that Mystic Theurge was also initially considered awesomely overpowered.

Well, it depends. There is no way I would play a warforged wizard and take any of the body feats at 1st. What I am saying is that Admanitne Body isn't a nessesary as you think it is. There are trade-offs. Both of the body feats take away flexability, something you seem to value a great deal. The reason many people tought it as a good feat, is because those people understand the loss of flexability and don't mind it.

I don't mind it, I consider it a cost however... and I'm surprised at the shortsightedness of other people who seem to think it's a good feat. Which is the main reason I brought it up. I think that it's a racial penalty feat instead... Everyone is all overawed at the potential to get 2/3 adamantine plate at first level, whereas I'm looking at the loss of a feat by the time I could have bought that plate.

Now we're getting somewhere.

I think you got the wrong feat. Personaly, I would have taken toughness before I would take Adamantine Body. I doubt I would have taken Mithral Body with that class list. You gave up flexability, something I think you value already, and proceded to build a character that requires the upmost flexability. On top of that, you have 3 leves in two diffrent arcane spellcasting classes, and a 35% Arcane spell failure rate. The flexability loss isn't that great do dedicated fighters, barbarians, and clerics. Heck, clearics benifite the most from Adamantine Body. Monks, Druids, and any arcane spellcaster simply don't benefit from the feat.

Plain toughness or improved toughness? ~_^

Personally, I wouldn't take Mithral body with almost any class list, the boost in AC isn't worth the feat. You get what, +3 to AC along with a list of penalties? Sometimes worth it but you're more likely to find a feat that's better... not always however. A feat that's effectively +3 to AC with no drawbacks (for those who don't really use skills anyway) is a pretty good feat. It's still a cost however, and a big one. Any othe race could have just bought that armor for much, much cheaper than a feat.

All I'm really losing is some speed... OK, fine, I'm losing a full 20 feet of speed. But I'm gaining 6 AC that I'd never be able to get any other way (because for every enchantment that could boost a character with other armor's AC by one, there's an identical enchantment that can boost this guy's armor that +1).

Anyhow, I'm only taking one level of an arcane casting class, Sorc 1. Two levels of fighter for the feats and two levels of Barb, for the rage and for the uncanny dodge (it's only one more level, what else should I consider, fighter 3? Fighter three is a stupid level).
Then I'm going all out Dragon Disciple. Which is NOT an arcane casting class. And the 35% spell failure... well, that's only going to affect my cantrips anyhow (other than Light). My two first level spells will be Benign Transposition (MiniHB) and True Strike. Neither of those will be affected by the potential spell failure, and both of them will be effective and useful for the entire life of the character. Would I prefer Mithril Full Plate to Adamantine Full plate? Sure. But Adamantine is good too.

Plus, and I'm going to be honest here, I wanted to play a Warforged character with Adamantine body. I started with that main concept, and worked a character up around it.
Would this character do better without the adamantine body feat?
Well... with the Mithril one it would be only 1 AC less in the long run (after the purchase of +6 to dex item)... and it would be 20 feet faster. So I suppose that would be a better feat for him. Without any feat it would be 4 AC down (after getting items of +6 to dex), and would also be up one feat... No, Barb2/fighter2/Sorc1/DragonDisciple10 would be best in the long run with Mithril Body most likely. However, what I didn't meantion above is that I also have some plans to go from there into the Warforged Juggernaught. That requires the Adamantine Body feat.

More my comments about the feat stem from the fact that I spent a very long time with the starting concept of 1) Warforged 2) Adamantine body... and I considered a lot of different options as to what would make an interesting 20 level character with that base... and I came up with a lot of frustration. It's a pretty horrible base, and the price of your only first level feat is very, very high when looked at from the viewpoint of a 20th level character (or a 15th level character).

On the other hand, I think that the flexibility loss is pretty great to barbarians, who lose 20 feet of movement (from light armor), or at least the extra 10 that they could have gotten if there were a medium armor choice available.

Monks.. Heck, I think Monks benifit the very most. Not from the feat, but from the race. The obviously wouldn't take the feat, but without it they're suddenly allowed to wear leather armor. This is something a monk of any other race cannot do.

On the gripping hand, an arcane caster class with no spell failure (well, in any spell he can cast above cantrip level) benifits just fine from the feat.

One thing though Ebberon is a fundamentally low level setting. There are very few if any High Level NPC's and I think most adventuring parties aren't expected to hit levels above maybe 12 anyway

Looked at fromt eh terms of of the world they were designed for Warforged are on teh strong side

Yea, I've got to admit that looking at them from the point of view of a character who ends his career at level 12, they're pretty good.

If the AC is an issue (because your group plays a lot of 15+ lvl games) just come up with a feat OR 3 to add AC

Spending further feats really just amplifies the original problem, as far as I can see. But coming up with alternate ways to change your armor, like spells or crafting mechanics (and gold in the form of special materials/labor) would do the trick nicely.

a fighter (which most Warforged are) usually has plenty of feats anyway

JMO but a warforged fighter with a magic light shield, a level or 2 of barbarian and the rest fighter who has whirling frenzy, 2 weapons feats (including 2 wpn defense) and a decent Dex sounds like a killing machine (pun intended) to me -- even in a higher than Ebberon standard level game YMMV

Definitely, a warforged fighter is awesome until around level 6. Which is why they were 'built'. The masses of armies aren't generally higher than level 6 or so anyhow.

However, while the class is definitely designed around a fighter base, as I said above, I've never seen anyone feel like sticking to fighter who's had a warforged... at least not more than the customary 2 level dip, which almost any non-casting class is going to be tempted to do.

 

[fanboy2000]

Personally, I wouldn't take Mithral body with almost any class list, the boost in AC isn't worth the feat. You get what, +3 to AC along with a list of penalties? Sometimes worth it but you're more likely to find a feat that's better... not always however. A feat that's effectively +3 to AC with no drawbacks (for those who don't really use skills anyway) is a pretty good feat. It's still a cost however, and a big one. Any othe race could have just bought that armor for much, much cheaper than a feat.

You forgot the +5 Max Dex bonus. Dex is important because it improves your touch AC, wheareas your armor bonus dosen't. Actually, you get fewer penalties. That's the trade-off a lower AC with fewer armor check penalties, lower arcane spell failure and the chance to takmithral fluidity to increase the max dex bonus and the reduce the armor check penalties.

I built a warforged fighter with Mithral Body becaue I had a dex bonus of +3. With Mithral Body I have an AC of 20 at 1st level, with Adamantane Body, I'd have an AC of 21. The one point diffrence allows me to keep my speed, and have my Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, etc.. at only a net -1.

On a related note, I forgoed the both body feats with my warforged scout. He's a first level Urban Ranger, he's got an AC 18 at 1st level. He's not a front liner, so I'm not to woried about him getting hit.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Sure, they do indeed have a list of immunities a mile long. I still had to look long and hard to find something, ANYthing that I'd be willing to play as one of that race. Their list of suck (or occasional mediocrity) is just that long too.

True, and that's part of the issue. A +10 to attack rolls but a -10 to AC is not good game balance, and it makes things unplayable and awkward in certain ways. Sure, the Warforged are more like a +5/-5, which is why they're still playable and fair and not overpowered, but for the first few levels especially, that matters.

Take a look at some of the high LA critters out there. Lists of immunities, protections, spell-like abilities a mile long, but if you play out of the mold of the monster, your list of suck and mediocrity is at least that long. The warforged have the same issue, but no LA because it's on a drastically smaller scale.

I'm also for substantial playtesting to see what *really* needs and doesn't need altering before mucking about with altering the class, race, or rule.

Don't forget that Mystic Theurge was also initially considered awesomely overpowered.

The thing with the Warforged is that if they're properly taken into account, they are completely okay for most parties and most campaigns. That's why I'm not out there crying for their utter abolition or anything. But something can be a poor design choice (IMHO) and still be completely playable, because it makes the game more awkward, but it doesn't violate that enough to doom a campaign. I'm not saying they can't be challenged, I'm saying they can't be challenged with certain common risks. This encourages a kind of "rock-paper-scissors" gameplay that no other race does, and it's not the kind of gameplay I generally like to see, because I love the gray areas that have their own unique appeal. The Warforged don't have much gray area, mechancially speaking.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

But something can be a poor design choice (IMHO) and still be completely playable, because it makes the game more awkward, but it doesn't violate that enough to doom a campaign.

Ahh, but the games I've played in involving Warforged are not at all made awkward. No more so than Elves make the game awkward. Sure, they've got immunities that other PC races don't, but that really has not made ANY of the games I've played/run with Warforged at all "awkward".

I believe its definitely something one should playtest multiple times BEFORE judging. Sure, its not screaming about the Mystic Theurge being overpowered(which I never believed in the first place, anyway...), but you ARE making a judgement with little basis beyond the read of the rules. They may read awkward, but until you play using them(more than once, too), you really can't accurately judge it.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Ahh, but the games I've played in involving Warforged are not at all made awkward. No more so than Elves make the game awkward. Sure, they've got immunities that other PC races don't, but that really has not made ANY of the games I've played/run with Warforged at all "awkward".

It's because they're only awkward in a few circumstances. A lot more than an elf, but still not most of them by any stretch of the imagination.

And I would have had them in my campaign, but since it was a nautical-themed setting with a focus on yuan-ti, poisonous snake, spiders, and drow....well, I figured they'd be inappropriate.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

It's because they're only awkward in a few circumstances. A lot more than an elf, but still not most of them by any stretch of the imagination.

And I would have had them in my campaign, but since it was a nautical-themed setting with a focus on yuan-ti, poisonous snake, spiders, and drow....well, I figured they'd be inappropriate.

Oh, come on! Doesn't the image of a Warforged Fighter standing on the bottom of the ocean with the bodies of his drowned companions floating around him seem even slightly humourous? I can just see him down there, with one thought as he tries to figure out how to swim back up.

"Well...this sucks."

 

[Pants]

And I would have had them in my campaign, but since it was a nautical-themed setting with a focus on yuan-ti, poisonous snake, spiders, and drow....well, I figured they'd be inappropriate.

Just because a Warforged is immune to poison doesn't mean some Drow Reavers or Yuanti can't hack him to bits with a large weapon.

What good is that immunity to poison when your companions are dead and you're the only one left to fight the remaining drow force?

"Whoo, your poison can't hurt me!"

*thud, thud, thud*

"Ow, damn arrows"

*boom*

"HP low... fricken fireballs..."

*thud, thud, thud... clank*

 

[Gez]

Just because a Warforged is immune to poison doesn't mean some Drow Reavers or Yuanti can't hack him to bits with a large weapon.

Yeah, that's what amused me when I saw KM wrote that warforged were immune to "defining or prominent damage form" of Nightcrawlers. They're immune to being swallowed whole by a giant undead worm?

Oh, sure, the Nightcrawler has several special attacks that aren't appropriate for a warforged. Contagion spell, poison, energy drain... But that won't help him against finger of death, cone of cold, swallow whole, or against bite +29 melee (4d6+21/19–20) and sting +24 melee (2d8+11/19–20).

 

[ARandomGod]

You forgot the +5 Max Dex bonus. Dex is important because it improves your touch AC, wheareas your armor bonus dosen't. Actually, you get fewer penalties. That's the trade-off a lower AC with fewer armor check penalties, lower arcane spell failure and the chance to takmithral fluidity to increase the max dex bonus and the reduce the armor check penalties.

I built a warforged fighter with Mithral Body becaue I had a dex bonus of +3. With Mithral Body I have an AC of 20 at 1st level, with Adamantane Body, I'd have an AC of 21. The one point diffrence allows me to keep my speed, and have my Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, etc.. at only a net -1.

On a related note, I forgoed the both body feats with my warforged scout. He's a first level Urban Ranger, he's got an AC 18 at 1st level. He's not a front liner, so I'm not to woried about him getting hit.

I was meaning that, in general, I would be more likely to take either adamantine or nothing, because if you're (well, if I're) playing a character who really wants that dex bonus, he also does not want the skills penalty... and because in general I'd rather the feat than the additional +3 AC for that class type. However, once you've already given up on the dex bonus, +8 is a very good feat.

And, all that aside, it's still more expensive than buying the armor is for a different race.