Why are Warforged so bad?

[I'm A Banana]

Yeah, that's what amused me when I saw KM wrote that warforged were immune to "defining or prominent damage form" of Nightcrawlers. They're immune to being swallowed whole by a giant undead worm?

Oh, sure, the Nightcrawler has several special attacks that aren't appropriate for a warforged. Contagion spell, poison, energy drain... But that won't help him against finger of death, cone of cold, swallow whole, or against bite +29 melee (4d6+21/19–20) and sting +24 melee (2d8+11/19–20).

Who has more to fear from a Nightcrawler, a Warforged or a dwarf? The dwarf is vulnerable to ALL those attacks. A warforged is just not immune to the normal "hitting things" "energy damage" and "insta-kill" attacks.

They are immune to contagion, poison, and energry drain, which are all significant risks of facing the Nightcrawler (especially, in this case, energy drain).

 

[Ds Da Man]

So in your opinion there's no need to argue about balance?

If any single race or class was IMO considerably better than the others, to a point where that class or race would dominate the party, I sure would like to talk about it, if only to see if my POV would be verified or not.

Actually, I must say I come here for the arguments, so I should have said, "start whining about balance, and give more arguments!"
Seriously though, the WF were created simply to add flavor. They weren't created simply for the sake of balance, though they really seem fairly balanced. The campaigns I played in were a lot more hack-n-slash, and less intrigue (i.e. poisons, etc.), so they really wouldn't be that great for our campaigns, since they only get 1/2 healing.

PS: You guys/gals are a great bunch, and I wish I could sit in on some of your sessions to see how they go, and maybe learn something.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Seriously though, the WF were created simply to add flavor. They weren't created simply for the sake of balance, though they really seem fairly balanced. The campaigns I played in were a lot more hack-n-slash, and less intrigue (i.e. poisons, etc.), so they really wouldn't be that great for our campaigns, since they only get 1/2 healing.

And there's another type of campaign the warforged aren't suited for, this time because they don't heal for crap.

+10/-10 Syndrome.

 

[Ds Da Man]

And there's another type of campaign the warforged aren't suited for, this time because they don't heal for crap.

+10/-10 Syndrome.

I hate to say it, but "AGREED"!

 

[FireLance]

Oh, come on! Doesn't the image of a Warforged Fighter standing on the bottom of the ocean with the bodies of his drowned companions floating around him seem even slightly humourous? I can just see him down there, with one thought as he tries to figure out how to swim back up.

"Well...this sucks."

I wonder if TonyM could be persuaded to do the artwork on that.

 

[Marshall]

True, and that's part of the issue. A +10 to attack rolls but a -10 to AC is not good game balance, and it makes things unplayable and awkward in certain ways. Sure, the Warforged are more like a +5/-5, which is why they're still playable and fair and not overpowered, but for the first few levels especially, that matters.

But Warforged are, essentially, +10 to AC/-Healing, feats and versatility. They are an exclusively defensive, at least physically, race.

Take a look at some of the high LA critters out there. Lists of immunities, protections, spell-like abilities a mile long, but if you play out of the mold of the monster, your list of suck and mediocrity is at least that long. The warforged have the same issue, but no LA because it's on a drastically smaller scale.

What are the Warforged good at? Whats their schtick? Do they even have a mold(no pun intended) to break out of?

Are they Arcane casters? Built-in ASF.
Are they skill monkeys? You have a choice of AC or severe skill penalties, pick one.
Are they light FTRs/Archers? CON bonus instead of DEX, but they arent suckage here.
Are they TANKS? Isnt this what they are designed for? Then why do they suck at it? They have to spend FEATS to get sub-par armor. Is this really a race that is designed to be shock troops?

Whats left? Clerics and Paladins? Is that really the niche they are supposed to occupy?

 

[FireLance]

Whats left? Clerics and Paladins? Is that really the niche they are supposed to occupy?

With penalties to Wisdom and Charisma? A religious warforged is a great character concept, but sub-optimal mechanically.

A warforged could make a decent artificer, although he will have a net -1 to Use Magic Device checks compared to artificers of most other races.

Adamantine Body isn't sub-par for a tank, at least at low to mid levels. Fighter is probably one of the best overall choices for a warforged. A warforged Barbarian with Adamantine Body would have both good offense and defence. He doesn't get the speed boost, but he doesn't get fatigued after his rage either - a fair trade-off in my view.

A warforged psion would also do fairly well mechanically - armor does not interfere with his psionic abilities and Intelligence is his key mental stat.

 

[Vurt]

Who has more to fear from a Nightcrawler, a Warforged or a dwarf? The dwarf is vulnerable to ALL those attacks. A warforged is just not immune to the normal "hitting things" "energy damage" and "insta-kill" attacks.

They are immune to contagion, poison, and energry drain, which are all significant risks of facing the Nightcrawler (especially, in this case, energy drain).

Isn't that the difference between "OMG I'm gonna die!" and "OMFG I'm gonna die!!!"

I mean really. Wasn't the crux of that argument that these creatures don't sufficiently challenge a warforged?

Cheers,
Vu "channeling Hong" rt

 

[Mokona]

"I think this was an intentional choice for the designers [to make warforged feel different from other player races], but I think it was a short-sighted choice..."

It would be best if we stopped guessing about the private motivations of someone other than ourselves.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Are they Arcane casters? Built-in ASF.
Are they skill monkeys? You have a choice of AC or severe skill penalties, pick one.
Are they light FTRs/Archers? CON bonus instead of DEX, but they arent suckage here.
Are they TANKS? Isnt this what they are designed for? Then why do they suck at it? They have to spend FEATS to get sub-par armor. Is this really a race that is designed to be shock troops?

(1) ASF is low. I don't have my books with me, but with a 90% chance of success, it still works well. Furthermore, isn't there a feat to help offset ASF? Even if there's not, they can still make handy arcane casters. They won't match gnomes or elves, but arcane casting isn't their thing.
In this vien, they also make very good artificers and good psions.
(2) They make pretty good skill monkeys, especially if they focus on non-social skills (nothing Charisma or Wisdom based as a major emphasis). No worse than any other race, and a shade better than some because they will be useful "front line" skill monkeys, what with extra hp and their immunities. Intelligence, Strength, or Dexterity based skills they all do fine a.
(3) They definately don't suck at tanking. Tanking isn't measured by AC entirely. More hp, light fortification, a wide range of immunities, feats that give them DR...they make quite perfect non-skill-focused barbarians, and as fighters they benefit from a truckload of feats that makes spending one on DR easy, and they benefit from not having to spend as much gold on supplies as normal fighters, leaving them open to spend it on other ways to improve their AC or statistics.

Isn't that the difference between "OMG I'm gonna die!" and "OMFG I'm gonna die!!!"

I mean really. Wasn't the crux of that argument that these creatures don't sufficiently challenge a warforged?

By the time parties are facing these things, they are kind of expected to survive. The immunity (in this case, ESPECIALLY to energy drain) reduces the challenge significantly. Does it eliminate the challenge? Nope.

"I think this was an intentional choice for the designers [to make warforged feel different from other player races], but I think it was a short-sighted choice..."

It would be best if we stopped guessing about the private motivations of someone other than ourselves.

Well, we have a fairly objective fact: the warforged work in a way that is quite a bit different than any other Core or Eberron race. The mere fact of being nonhumanoid and not having the basic internal workings of normal living metabolism are pretty clear in this. They are an exception to some of the rules that exist for every other race.

Then we have a question: "why did the people at WotC make it like this?"

We have two responses to that question: they wanted it like this, or they made a mistake and didn't want it like this.

Given the amount of hype and energy behind Eberron, I'm willing to give the designers the benefit of the doubt and say that they wanted the warforged to be different. They accomplished that goal.

If they wanted the warforged to be the same, they failed in that goal. I don't think they would've let the warforged out without meeting their goal, so I don't think this was their goal.

Fair enough to say, then? I mean, these guys are talented and paid designers...certainly they knew the warforged came in as an exception to the ususal rules. If they didn't want it that way, why is it that way?