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Message: <blockquote data-quote="billd91" data-source="post: 6241803" data-attributes="member: 3400">I don't think that's the case. Designers give you a starting place, but if the players don't recognize when they're out-doing each other, leaving each other behind, or causing trouble at the table and aren't willing to take the steps to correct it then the table's simply dysfunctional. This applies whether the issues are mechanical or are based on player skills and ingenuity. If they're not working together or at least in a mutually satisfactory style, then the players and their play is part, possibly even most, of the problem.Very much going to disagree with that. They're a mess, particularly when coupled with the XP earning system and training which pretty much prevents a first level thief from getting to 2nd level until he would have had the XPs to get to 3rd. But I generally agree here. If the players don't get it, no matter what it is, you're not going to get good results. Chasing that problem with game design and mechanics is not the solution.</blockquote>