D&D 5E Why Balance is Bad

[Zardnaar]

First things first 3rd edition was a bit to far in its balance problems than I like. However I am a perma DM so I do not really care about any class being better than another, DPM or any other thing the charge of the brigades of balance seem to trumpet.

Balance is also not required to actually sell D&D. 1st ed and 3rd ed have been the best selling versions of D&D ever while Pathfinder is not really balanced at all. Complexity and not balance is actually a bigger issue for me. My players prefer 3.x derived games I prefer OSR games myself as I am the DM and they are easier to run. D20 based clones of AD&D/BECMI are the easiest D&D I have had the pleasure of running.

Being a D&D newb with only 20 years of D&D under my belt, (19 of them DMing) I have become used to D&Ds erm D&Dism's and it is what I expect from the game. Apparently scaling vancian spells are broken so I can no longer have ye olde traditional fireball. Unless I buy a version of D&D not made by WoTC.

This 20 years of experience with ye olde traditional fireball makes it very easy to switch from BECMI through to 3.5. Since late 2012 we have been playing 2nd ed, Myth and Magic, Adventurer Conqueror King, and my home brew D&D. I have not played 3.5 since 2010, 4E since 2010, or Pathfinder since 2012. Having mostly the same spells makes it very easy to do this and converting from one OSR game to another is very easy as a general rule. Its not hard to run a Castle and Crusades adventure in homebrew, AD&D or even 3rd ed.

If balance was the number one objective for the D&D player base the OSR revival and the mass defection to Pathfinder would not be happening. The obsession with balance is going to hurt D&DN more than help it IMHO as a fireball is 1d6/level not 3d6+int bonus or 6d6 or whatever they have made it in D&DN. I'm not sure who the largest % of players for D&D are but I suspect it is Pathfinder followed by 3rd ed and OSR+3.x would be the largest % of D&D players. New players will not really care about balance, complexity I imagine will be a bigger issue for them. They may not be the largest % responding to D&DN surveys as they have other games and options but even New Coke had good results in testing

Balance in the modern sense is not required or even desirable it seems from the largest numbers of the D&D player base. Just saying.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Do we need two (inevitably) angry edition-warring threads on the same topic? Spawned after another thread on essentially the same topic got locked?

 

[DEFCON 1]

It's so cute when players invent their own myths about the entirety of the D&D playerbase just to make their own opinions about the game be the "right" ones.

 

[SteveC]

(Am I too old, that I started hearing the "Welcome Back Kotter" theme with this thread).

I am wondering if you have a podcast or other description of how a higher level game works for you. That might sound like an odd request, but if you're playing Pathfinder or 3X at higher levels, and not houseruling it in a major way, I'd be very interested in seeing how your game works.

 

[Mistwell]

(Am I too old, that I started hearing the "Welcome Back Kotter" theme with this thread).

I am wondering if you have a podcast or other description of how a higher level game works for you. That might sound like an odd request, but if you're playing Pathfinder or 3X at higher levels, and not houseruling it in a major way, I'd be very interested in seeing how your game works.

And I am wondering if, in the podcast, he actual joins words together as one word frequently, like he did with that post all over the place, or if it's just an internet thing for him. I want to hear how he pronounces 3rdedition, HoweverI, betterthan, ofbalance, toactually, havebeen, isnot, abigger, OSRgames, basedclones, thepleasure, usedto, haveye, notmade, yeolde, BECMIthrough, 2nded, since2012, andconverting, generalrule, inhomebrew, oneobjective, massdefection, withbalance, afireball, havemade, forD&D, playerswill, abigger, toD&DN, NewCoke, notrequired, and theD&D.

Just saying.

Indeed.

I've drunk-posted using a keyboard with a broken space bar key, and managed to type better than that! (true story - I would copy and paste a space instead of being able to use the space bar),

 

[Umbran]

It's so cute when players invent their own myths...

But it is less cute when people get snarky.

Remember, folks, snark is a non-functional mode of rhetoric. It does nothing to support your point to anyone who does not already agree with you, as it engages egos more strongly than rational thought.

As such, it is pretty much just condescending to and antagonizing people. And willfully antagonizing folks isn't what we'd call civil. And Rule #1 is, "Keep it civil."

Clear enough? I hope so. If not, please take it to e-mail or PM with one of the moderators. Thank you.

 

[Jacob Marley]

I am wondering if you have a podcast or other description of how a higher level game works for you. That might sound like an odd request, but if you're playing Pathfinder or 3X at higher levels, and not houseruling it in a major way, I'd be very interested in seeing how your game works.

I don't know about the OP, but I have pretty good notes on my last 3.5 campaign. I'll type it up tomorrow and start posting it in the Story Hour forum (I've been meaning to do this anyway), and link to it here (assuming this thread or the other thread doesn't get closed). The narrative was structured using Mythic: Game Master Emulator and the random encounter charts were original to AD&D and Greyhawk*, but the rules interactions were pure 3.5.

Edit: *Not in terms of quantities encountered, but instead in terms of what was encountered.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

let me shock everyone and say "Yea, your right..." ((Yes I am arguing for balance in another thread.))

Being a D&D newb with only 20years of D&D under my belt, (19 of them DMing) I have become usedto D&Ds erm D&Dism's and it is what I expect from the game.Apparently scaling vancian spells are broken so I can no longer haveye olde traditional fireball. Unless I buy a version of D&D notmade by WoTC.

I only have been DMing since the 90's but I agree, 4e made it feel so weird... it did ALOT right, but taking some Sacred cows out backfired...

This 20 years of experience with yeolde traditional fireball makes it very easy to switch from BECMIthrough to 3.5. Since late 2012 we have been playing 2^nded, Myth and Magic, Adventurer Conqueror King, and my home brew D&D.I have not played 3.5 since 2010, 4E since 2010, or Pathfinder since2012. Having mostly the same spells makes it very easy to do this andconverting from one OSR game to another is very easy as a generalrule. Its not hard to run a Castle and Crusades adventure inhomebrew, AD&D or even 3^rd ed.

1st I'm mad you got to play Myth and Magic... I have been waiting for my books for over a year... second of all that is part of what we need to keep, things feeling like D&D

Balance in the modern sense is not required or even desirable it seems from the largest numbers of the D&D player base. Just saying.

well that is one swing too far, we need balance, but we need it within the classes... imagine a 2e wizard (limit spells known, and spells with drawbacks like haste and no bonus spells per day) next to a 4e fighter or rogue...

 

[Jester David]

I disagree and believe balance to be important.
However, I do not believe balance to be the most important thing. It's important but the tone and fun of the game trumps balance. Some imbalance is even desirable in certain situations.


The Edition That Shall Remain Unnamed definietly put balance to the forefront, sacraficing a lot of D&D-isms for the sake of balance. It made a more balanced game, but felt less like D&D. But, more egregiously, it initially took a symetrical view of balance. Later products moved away from that approach but this was likely too late.

I'm trying very hard not to put judgement statemets into this paragraph. There's no good/bad or preference.


I think there's a middle ground. You can retain the D&D elements of 1e-3e without abandoning balance. You can retain the history of the game without saying "no" to balance.

 

[Minigiant]

Balance is good.

That part many miss is:

There are dozens of ways to balance a game. There is not only one type of balance.

The hard part is picking a type of balance, doing it right, explaining it, and selling it.
It's hard to do that. Almost every RPG and edition of a RPG fails at one of the above.

Balance is not the most important thing. But it is high on the list as failure to pick one, do it right, and/or sell it spawns easy competition.