D&D 5E (2014) Encounter Balance holds back 5E

[jayoungr]

I just don't see how you can play 5e without caring about resource management in a significant way. It's at the core of virtually all the player side mechanics in the game. That's what "fundamental" means to me. What "other things" in 5e are you focusing your attention on that make resource management less important? Because the mechanics of pretty much the whole game of 5e care about it very much. Do you not engage with the mechanics much at all at your table?

I said some groups don't mind if the resource management game isn't at peak efficiency, or maybe peak operation would be a better phrase. Peak operation is based on pushing every class to their limit--for example, ensuring that the casters aren't able to use their slotted spells every round, in order to roughly equalize the mechanical contributions of all classes. The ideal goal of "peak operation" is for every PC to be out or nearly out of resources by the time the group decides to take a long rest. And the easiest way to achieve this is with lots of combat, because combat uses up class resources faster than just about anything else. I get all that.

But there are groups who simply aren't bothered if some of the PCs usually still have most of their resources left when they take a long rest. They aren't worried if one of the PCs routinely does the most DPR in most combats. The resource management system isn't at peak operation for them, and they don't care.

What are the "other things" they might focus on? Things like finding creative ways to get past that ancient red dragon without fighting it. Having a "vivid and varied game," in the OP's words. And even when it comes to combat, sometimes the players are satisfied as long as the group overcomes the obstacle and they can progress to the next stage of the adventure.

 

[Parmandur]

I said some groups don't mind if the resource management game isn't at peak efficiency, or maybe peak operation would be a better phrase. Peak operation is based on pushing every class to their limit--for example, ensuring that the casters aren't able to use their slotted spells every round, in order to roughly equalize the mechanical contributions of all classes. The ideal goal of "peak operation" is for every PC to be out or nearly out of resources by the time the group decides to take a long rest. And the easiest way to achieve this is with lots of combat, because combat uses up class resources faster than just about anything else. I get all that.

But there are groups who simply aren't bothered if some of the PCs usually still have most of their resources left when they take a long rest. They aren't worried if one of the PCs routinely does the most DPR in most combats. The resource management system isn't at peak operation for them, and they don't care.

What are the "other things" they might focus on? Things like finding creative ways to get past that ancient red dragon without fighting it. Having a "vivid and varied game," in the OP's words. And even when it comes to combat, sometimes the players are satisfied as long as the group overcomes the obstacle and they can progress to the next stage of the adventure.

Yup, and I think it is a major strength of 5E that it operates whether the engine is run to the max or not. But the balance point, design wise, is fundamentally around the engine being pushed.

 

[Maxperson]

In a formal discussion, its usually polite form to go through one person's idea first before targeting definitions. I know on this specific forum you guys prefer to actually just argue definitions for 100 pages, but I ask this one time you go with the definition and only come back to critique it after going through the rest of my ideas.

I have to stress that this is how an actual academic or formal discussion would be held.

Yes, but the definitions of academic and formal are a problem.

 

[jayoungr]

Yup, and I think it is a major strength of 5E that it operates whether the engine is run to the max or not. But the balance point, design wise, is fundamentally around the engine being pushed.

Okay? But this isn't a combat simulator board game. There is so much more to it, and some groups don't even think the "engine" is the most interesting part.

What I object to is the idea that the "engine" is all there is to the game, or the only thing that matters. That's what I hear when people say "5E wants a lot of combat" or "5E is fundamentally about resource management."

 

[Maxperson]

This is a table problem: a 8 Charisma PC without relevant proficiency shouldn't even be making certain rolls in the first place.

Yep. There will be many times that the 18 charisma individual if talking has an outcome that is not in doubt, where the PC with the 8 charisma yields lots of doubt and has to roll. This is an issue with the DM, not the rules.

 

[mamba]

Yep. There will be many times that the 18 charisma individual if talking has an outcome that is not in doubt, where the PC with the 8 charisma yields lots of doubt and has to roll. This is an issue with the DM, not the rules.

how so, the rules say to roll when the outcome is in doubt, that seems to match what you are describing

Or to bring it back to the earlier example, if you want to understand some magic runes / Chinese writing, you better be proficient in Arcana / Chinese if you want to even try, otherwise there is no doubt that you fail

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's difficult to enter a conversation 20 pages in. Not sure how 'on-topic' it is at this point as I've only read the first two pages but, to comment on the OP:

I think this isn't unique to 5e. As far as I can remember, this has been an issue with every version of D&D I've played - speaking specifically about how appropriate CR to PC level can affect the narrative.

A few things I've always noticed in d20 games:

1. The PC abilities interact primarily with the combat mechanics. Often abilities that interact with other pillars are considered by many as 'too weak' (the Battle Master's "Know Your Enemy") or trivializes an entire pillar (some of the Ranger abilities or, arguably, the Outlander background on the exploration pillar.) There are almost no abilities besides spells and, maybe, one or two feats that interact with the social pillar.

Because of this, a DM is more likely to use combat to provide PCs an opportunity to use their abilities. As they level, combat gets more difficult as a way to test and challenge those abilities which has strange consequences on the World.

2. The Campaign World has to reconcile the fact that there are Dragons and other nearly unbeatable creatures wandering the countryside. Why has the wilderness become so dangerous just because the PCs are higher level? At low levels, an Ogre is rare, but now they just randomly leap out of the bushes when traveling down the road!

And if the DM splits their world into 'civilization and wilderness' Where the civilized lands have less 'danger' (which enables 1st level PCs to travel and explore without encountering an Ogre or Ancient Dragon), then the assumption is the Ruling Power must have a standing army with NPC Wizards or Fighters that have enough power to stave off such threats. This has repercussions on the structure of the world itself.

As far as alternating the challenges for PCs go, one of the better DMs I've had did a few things to mix it up and made the campaign world make sense:

1. The fiction was well-established. Most people didn't travel the Ogre Hills...because it was reputedly full of Giants. We ventured there at second level and it was a TPK as we encountered 3 wandering Hill Giants. We learned our lesson and rolled up another set of characters. Sure, there's an Ancient Dragon in the Dragon Peaks but it's so far away and difficult to access that, even if you wanted to get there, it would be near impossible to access. As you levelled, you were able to venture further into more dangerous territory and your reputation for being able to survive those challenges allowed NPCs to send you on adventures because you were some of the few who would choose to brave those areas. Sure, there were other powerful NPCs but they were rival adventuring groups or those working for Powerful People who liked to keep their Body Guards close.

2. At higher levels, we would often encounter challenges that were super easy. Of course we would! We were some of the most powerful adventurers in the country! The problem is that we had too much to do! Some jobs were a nuisance. We eventually hired lower-level NPCs to do all the adventures that had some urgency attached to them but which we didn't have time to do. Sure, there was Ogres attacking our home village but we really needed to go to the Shadowfell to take care of that Necromancer that was summoning an Undead Dragon. We sent Team B to the village. And, eventually, Team C. We had more than enough secondary magical items to kit them out.

I think many Campaign worlds get structured this way because of how the narrative must interact with the mechanics

The structure you've just described is basically my setting ideal.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Okay? But this isn't a combat simulator board game. There is so much more to it, and some groups don't even think the "engine" is the most interesting part.

What I object to is the idea that the "engine" is all there is to the game, or the only thing that matters. That's what I hear when people say "5E wants a lot of combat" or "5E is fundamentally about resource management."

The engine is what the game runs on. If you're doing a lot of stuff that doesn't interact with the mechanics, then you start inching further from playing 5e, because the game of 5e (as opposed to some other game) is the engine. That doesn't mean you're not role-playing, or playing a TTRPG even, but the less you're engaging with the mechanics of a particular game, the less you're actually playing that game.

 

[Maxperson]

how so, the rules say to roll when the outcome is in doubt, that seems to match what you are describing

Right. It's only in doubt for the PC with an 8 charisma since he's a braying donkey and even basic stuff can be in doubt. The paladin with the 18 charisma is smooth and in the same situation doesn't have to roll at all since success isn't in doubt.

This doesn't apply to every situation, but the situations where it would be in doubt for the guy with an 18 charisma would be the ones with the DCs high enough that the guy with an 8 would almost never succeed with a roll anyway.

 

[jayoungr]

The engine is what the game runs on. If you're doing a lot of stuff that doesn't interact with the mechanics, then you start inching further from playing 5e, because the game of 5e (as opposed to some other game) is the engine.

The engine may very well come into use when resolving things like how to get past that red dragon--it probably involves skill checks, for example. But it may or may not involve use of limited resources like spell slots, so that may not have much effect on whether you're at peak operation.

(ETA) Imagine that the level 5 party is trying to get past the ancient red dragon. The bard gets a 23 on a Performance roll to enthrall the dragon with tales of how the party found a stash of more treasure than they could carry away, convincing the dragon that there's a huge pile of gold nearby just waiting to be added to its hoard. Meanwhile, the rogue gets a 27* on a Stealth check to sneak behind the dragon's back and steal the key to the Hidden Fortress of Marzuk without being noticed. The 5E mechanics were used, no limited resources were expended, the engine was not operating at its peak, and at the end of the evening, the players of those two characters feel awesome because they contributed to the session, even though the bard still has the majority of spell slots left when the PCs camp for the night.

*Roll of 17 on the die, 18 (+4) DEX, +3 proficiency bonus, Expertise in Stealth (so a +10 bonus in all). An ancient red dragon has a passive Perception of 26.