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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6241844" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>Which misses the point. The point is that <em>fights with dragons should never be both short and victorious.</em> In order to allow the thief to be poor at combat if they need to sit out of combats you need to take the dragons out of Dungeons & Dragons. It doesn't matter if the rogue misses the fight with the two goblins - or the wizard leaves it to the fighter. But unless you are going to make the encounter with the Goblin King and 12 high priests of evil as quick as the one with two goblin minions, it <em>does</em> matter that the thief won't be contributing to <em>that.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p>Which means that the thief needs to sit out all the capstone combats. Precisely the worst things to be sitting out. Not only is the thief's player getting bored. But they are getting bored precisely at the moment everyone is supposed to be getting excited for the payoff.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Indeed. But if someone sucks at combat like the thief you can <em>only</em> have fights that last a minute or two. You can't fight a dragon. You can not fight the goblin king. All your fights must be short and simple. And, as I say, I consider removing the dragons from a game of Dungeons and Dragons to be kinda limiting.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Possibly so. But what your proposal amounts to is telling the thief "Sure you can play. But we are simply going to bench you <em>for the big games</em>." Which is almost worse than being benched for the whole season so you can wander off with a clear conscience.</p><p></p><p>Of course the solution to this is to give the thief resource management on a par with the wizard. Somehow I doubt that will go down well.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Because they are just going to get laughed at.</p><p></p><p>It has taken me a long time to understand why so many people have problems with 4e skill challenges. But I think I have it.</p><p></p><p>There are two fundamental approaches to game rules for RPGs. Prescriptive rules and descriptive rules.</p><p></p><p>Prescriptive Rules (like 3e and GURPS) say "You must do things this way. This is exactly how the game world works. If the rules let you do something you can do it. If the rules don't, you can't. Or you have to ignore the rules."</p><p></p><p>Descriptive rules (like Fate and most of 4e) say "We are all adults here. You, the players, know what is plausible in the specific situation you are in better than we, the writers, do most of the time. And especially in any way that will involve motivations and reactions. There is no such thing as a Standard Tree (<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/climb.htm" target="_blank">DC15</a>). Instead we're going to create an open rules system that provides interest, challenge, and balance. And we're going to expect you to do the basic work of keeping your fiction consistent and of applying the rules. We may nail down a few things, and those are generally things that you have no direct experience of, like magic (or like combat - no the SCA doesn't count) in order to help you make your fiction more consistent."</p><p></p><p>What matters in 4e that means you can't pick up the king on his throne? <em>Why would that seriously help win the king over?</em> The fiction, rather than the rules, is the focus of the game. The rules are just broad enough to enable and empower you to run the game easily when the PCs try exotic tricks of the sort that PCs come up with.</p><p></p><p>So to use an example from one of my games, a headbutt, resolved by an athletics check, has been the equivalent of a diplomacy check in a skill challenge. Doesn't match the fiction you think? The person being headbutted was a priest of Kord. And I'm sure my fellow Mass Effect players know about headbutting Krogan...</p><p></p><p>So to sum up, skill checks count towards the skill challenge <em>if and only if they make sense as helping the skill challenge within the context of the fiction</em>. If they don't? The DM is outright expected to ignore them for the skill challenge - or even count them as failures (see the intimidation check auto-failure in the first example).</p><p></p><p>Or, to put things another way, skill challenges work by assuming good faith. And giving the DM tools to handle things if the PCs act in bad faith. Arguments about "You could weightlift the king on his throne" are starting by giving a player acting in bad faith, and the DM not using the tools they are given and encouraged to use to deal with this.</p><p></p><p>But if PCs act in good faith, there is far more you can do with skills at the right time than the game rules would indicate. See, for example, headbutting Krogan or Kordites. A system that enables you to do things that are appropriate at the right times IMO is far more valuable than one that restricts you.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is remarkably easy - if you accept the classic D&D contention that hit points are not substantially physical. But that's for another thread.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6241844, member: 87792"] Which misses the point. The point is that [I]fights with dragons should never be both short and victorious.[/I] In order to allow the thief to be poor at combat if they need to sit out of combats you need to take the dragons out of Dungeons & Dragons. It doesn't matter if the rogue misses the fight with the two goblins - or the wizard leaves it to the fighter. But unless you are going to make the encounter with the Goblin King and 12 high priests of evil as quick as the one with two goblin minions, it [I]does[/I] matter that the thief won't be contributing to [I]that. [/I] Which means that the thief needs to sit out all the capstone combats. Precisely the worst things to be sitting out. Not only is the thief's player getting bored. But they are getting bored precisely at the moment everyone is supposed to be getting excited for the payoff. Indeed. But if someone sucks at combat like the thief you can [I]only[/I] have fights that last a minute or two. You can't fight a dragon. You can not fight the goblin king. All your fights must be short and simple. And, as I say, I consider removing the dragons from a game of Dungeons and Dragons to be kinda limiting. Possibly so. But what your proposal amounts to is telling the thief "Sure you can play. But we are simply going to bench you [I]for the big games[/I]." Which is almost worse than being benched for the whole season so you can wander off with a clear conscience. Of course the solution to this is to give the thief resource management on a par with the wizard. Somehow I doubt that will go down well. Because they are just going to get laughed at. It has taken me a long time to understand why so many people have problems with 4e skill challenges. But I think I have it. There are two fundamental approaches to game rules for RPGs. Prescriptive rules and descriptive rules. Prescriptive Rules (like 3e and GURPS) say "You must do things this way. This is exactly how the game world works. If the rules let you do something you can do it. If the rules don't, you can't. Or you have to ignore the rules." Descriptive rules (like Fate and most of 4e) say "We are all adults here. You, the players, know what is plausible in the specific situation you are in better than we, the writers, do most of the time. And especially in any way that will involve motivations and reactions. There is no such thing as a Standard Tree ([URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/climb.htm"]DC15[/URL]). Instead we're going to create an open rules system that provides interest, challenge, and balance. And we're going to expect you to do the basic work of keeping your fiction consistent and of applying the rules. We may nail down a few things, and those are generally things that you have no direct experience of, like magic (or like combat - no the SCA doesn't count) in order to help you make your fiction more consistent." What matters in 4e that means you can't pick up the king on his throne? [I]Why would that seriously help win the king over?[/I] The fiction, rather than the rules, is the focus of the game. The rules are just broad enough to enable and empower you to run the game easily when the PCs try exotic tricks of the sort that PCs come up with. So to use an example from one of my games, a headbutt, resolved by an athletics check, has been the equivalent of a diplomacy check in a skill challenge. Doesn't match the fiction you think? The person being headbutted was a priest of Kord. And I'm sure my fellow Mass Effect players know about headbutting Krogan... So to sum up, skill checks count towards the skill challenge [I]if and only if they make sense as helping the skill challenge within the context of the fiction[/I]. If they don't? The DM is outright expected to ignore them for the skill challenge - or even count them as failures (see the intimidation check auto-failure in the first example). Or, to put things another way, skill challenges work by assuming good faith. And giving the DM tools to handle things if the PCs act in bad faith. Arguments about "You could weightlift the king on his throne" are starting by giving a player acting in bad faith, and the DM not using the tools they are given and encouraged to use to deal with this. But if PCs act in good faith, there is far more you can do with skills at the right time than the game rules would indicate. See, for example, headbutting Krogan or Kordites. A system that enables you to do things that are appropriate at the right times IMO is far more valuable than one that restricts you. This is remarkably easy - if you accept the classic D&D contention that hit points are not substantially physical. But that's for another thread. [/QUOTE]
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