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Message: <blockquote data-quote="keterys" data-source="post: 6244322" data-attributes="member: 43019">I've played lots of 2e rogues (and everything else, probably). My highest level PC was a bard (at least 23rd level).It doesn't change my opinion that every class needs to be able to be okay at combat. Even if the bard is not good, because it excels at the other tiers, it should have some options that doesn't make it a detriment to the group in combat. (See Elan in Order of the Stick if you need inspiration)But, seriously, ability to do passable melee attacks, a breadth of spells, songs which boost all your allies? Yeah, that's participating. The 3e Expert, for comparison, should not be a class offered to players (though it can be in a side supplement somewhere, that's fine).Any newbie sitting down to play the game should be able to pick the class that sounds fun and participate in the game. It's fine if they're worse at some things (ex: combat) and better at other things (ex: interaction), but there's no excuse for being relatively useless or a liability. (Unless, again, the player chooses to neuter their character on purpose to make it happen)</blockquote>