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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6245550" data-attributes="member: 42582">I think that's either a fairly narrow conception of the intended purpose of skill challenges, or else a narrow conception of what "complex plans and operations" are for.(I've deliberately said "narrow", not "flawed". I'm trying to describe, not criticise. Relative to a desired playstyle and play outcome there can be all sorts of reasons for applying some technique or conception narrowly rather than broadly.)A more broad reading of "complex plans and operations" would see them as a way of moving from point A of and adventure to some other point (be it B, Z or something inbetween). In combination with the general "yes, but" tenor of the advice in the 4e DMG, the real questin is "will the complex plan or operation take you from A to B as you desire, or will it instead land you in B with a penalty, or instead in C which isn't quite where yu wanted to be"? When you look at it this way, that's just what a skill challenge is for by your own account of it.A more broad reading of the purposes of skill challenges would focus on these passages:PHB (pp 179, 259) In contrast to an obstacle that requires one successful skill check, a skill challenge is a complex situation in which you must make several successful checks, often using a variety of skills, before you can claim success in the encounter. . . A skill challenge occurs when exploration . . . or social interaction becomes an encounter, with serious consequences for success or failure. DMG (pp 70,72): When characters make skill checks in response to a series of changing conditions, with success or failure being uncertain, they’re in a skill challenge. Scouring the jungle for a hidden temple or persuading the duke to send aid to defend the pass might both be skill challenge encounters . . . An audience with the duke, a mysterious set of sigils in a hidden chamber, finding your way through the Forest of Neverlight — all of these present challenges that test both the characters and the people who play them. . . It’s not a skill challenge every time you call for a skill check. When an obstacle takes only one roll to resolve, it’s not a challenge.This isn't just about "avoiding penalties": it's about "success or failure" of a complex ingame situation with "changing conditions" (ie requiring more than just "one roll to resolve") being "uncertain" and having "serious consequence". To me, that seems to cover (indeed, to describe) complex plans and operations.I think you different approach from mine (and  [MENTION=87792]Neonchameleon[/MENTION]'s, I'm guessing) might be because you're running pre-written scenarios (eg LFR) so that the desired outcome of events has been pre-written in: the only uncertainty is the mechanical penalty the players will take on the way through (eg how many surges do they lose). This seems implicit in your reference to minor story penalties.I think skill challenges work better when run with the conception of how things end up being much more open-ended (this puts more weight on serious consequences).</blockquote>

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