Why Defenses (saves)?

[Frostmarrow]

I was wondering, if hit points are abstract why is there a need for defenses (saves)? Why not just add a tag to any damage and that tag only comes into play if the target is reduced to zero hit points?

Say a Medusa shoots you with an arrow but you have hp left, it just means you were shot at. If she meets your gaze and you are reduced to zero hit points it means you are petrified. Why the need to short-circuit the perfect mechanic (hit points).

It works for anything: Trip, disarm, humiliate, intimidate, set ablaze, kick to the curb, snicker snack. Anything.

 

[wingsandsword]

Because hit points are not "the perfect mechanic".

Various saving throws, as well as effects like ability damage/drain help provide options and granularity to DM's to simulate various levels of threats and ability to incapacitate, as well as providing ways to show that certain characters and character classes are more resistant to some effects than others, instead of the "one size fits all" Hit Point mechanic.

 

[Nerd Mike]

Short answer: because many effects are all or nothing, and in many cases it doesn't make sense that it's easier to apply one condition to me simply because I already have another.

Or for that matter, let's say (using your examples) that I'm fighting Medusa. I've been bitten by two of her snakes. It reduces my hp and adds a Poison tag. Then she tries the gaze. My hp goes down further, and I gain the Petrify tag. In the very next round, I've disengaged from Medusa and I'm facing her minotaur consort. He smacks me with his great axe and reduces me to zero. So now, because I was hit by an axe, I am instantly poisoned and petrified.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Well, triggering things off of being reduced t o zero hit points strikes me as quite odd, and assumes the creature will be getting back into the fight or at least consciousness immediately, otherwise, why bother? Well, it might work to some extent for the monsters vs heroes, but how about the other way around? Monsters tend to stay down once they are down.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Short answer: because many effects are all or nothing, and in many cases it doesn't make sense that it's easier to apply one condition to me simply because I already have another.

Or for that matter, let's say (using your examples) that I'm fighting Medusa. I've been bitten by two of her snakes. It reduces my hp and adds a Poison tag. Then she tries the gaze. My hp goes down further, and I gain the Petrify tag. In the very next round, I've disengaged from Medusa and I'm facing her minotaur consort. He smacks me with his great axe and reduces me to zero. So now, because I was hit by an axe, I am instantly poisoned and petrified.

Oh no. You only care about the tag when it gets you. The minotaur paints the wall with you. That's the tag. We forget about wounds all the time. Why bother remembering a little poison?

Besides. (Looking at wingsandsword ) It is still easy to differentiate between strengths and weaknesses. Say an elf is resistant to sleep effects. When reduced to zero hp by sleep damage the damage is disregarded. So sleep can "damage" an elf, as in reduce hp, but it will never finish an elf.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Well, triggering things off of being reduced t o zero hit points strikes me as quite odd, and assumes the creature will be getting back into the fight or at least consciousness immediately, otherwise, why bother? Well, it might work to some extent for the monsters vs heroes, but how about the other way around? Monsters tend to stay down once they are down.

That's because I riddle them with tiny rays of concentrated force.

I'm just saying we still use hit points to cover a lot of misery but not all, why?

 

[amerigoV]

I was wondering, if hit points are abstract why is there a need for defenses (saves)? Why not just add a tag to any damage and that tag only comes into play if the target is reduced to zero hit points?

Say a Medusa shoots you with an arrow but you have hp left, it just means you were shot at. If she meets your gaze and you are reduced to zero hit points it means you are petrified. Why the need to short-circuit the perfect mechanic (hit points).

It works for anything: Trip, disarm, humiliate, intimidate, set ablaze, kick to the curb, snicker snack. Anything.

It certainly would push more people to run barbarians (well, I'm thinking 3e here with that juicey d12 for HP - not sure what 4e has the barbarian HP at). Plus, no need to worry about any other stat than Con (and whatever your class needs) since HP are king.

You might get away with it if everyone has the same HP mechanic (move all the saving throw luck the low HP classes have into the HPs themselves).

 

[RangerWickett]

I did a quick-play ruleset for a Halloween game where everyone had hit points, and attacks just had damage rolls, not attack rolls. It worked well enough, but combat was not the focus.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Famous deaths:

Boromir is turned into a pincushion but keeps fighting. In the end killed by an arrow.

Bennet is beaten up severely, trips into a connector box and is electrocuted.

T2 is shot, frozen solid, smashed into a thousand pieces and destroyed by smelted metal.

Achilles suffers it all but cannot die. Until tagged in the heel.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I was wondering, if hit points are abstract why is there a need for defenses (saves)? Why not just add a tag to any damage and that tag only comes into play if the target is reduced to zero hit points?

It's a fair question!

The main reason is because there are other effects that may incapacitate you, and it's useful to distinguish between the incapacitation that is occurring. You might have better resistance to Charms than to Poison, for instance, and it would be useful to thematically be able to represent that each time you are hit with a charm, rather than just when you are "killed" by a charm. Your mind is better able to resist charms, so you more easily ignore them entirely. Or maybe you can dodge an arrow, but it wouldn't make sense to dodge that poisoned food you just ate. Or you can get willpower to resist a sleep spell, but you can't "willpower" your way through dragon breath.

But I think your idea could certainly work, with a few adjustments. HP is an abstract resource, and there's no reason it can't be made MORE abstract, as a sort of general timeline of how close you are to doom. Maybe a "lesser" version of the tag comes into play when you are first bloodied? Maybe the "tag" comes into play each time you are damaged, either as a form of DR, or as a defense bonus?

Like, an enemy tries to hit our elf friend with a sleep spell. Well, elves are "immune" to sleep, so that doesn't do any damage. Or, if they try to hit our charm-resistant buddy above, they take a -2 penalty to their attack roll.

I don't see how these aren't really compatible with defenses at least as they are in 4e -- as a sort of AC the creature needs to hit. But I certainly see the merit in saying "Anything bad that happens deals HP damage."