Why DMs Don't Like Magic Marts

[LostSoul]

Well magic marts are the direct outgrowth of the Christmas Tree problem. If the adventurers, like all good adventurers, have been successful and filled every single item slot with shiny goodies, in many cases shiny goodies that were good ten levels ago, but useless now, then, unless the adventurers are the only adventurers on the planet, there are a lot of excess goods around.

I don't use magic item marts (4E or so). My setting is post-apoc medieval; shops of any kind are hard to find! This meant that the PCs hung onto their magic items. There might be a use later on; maybe an interesting NPC-turned-henchman could take it. Lots of little magic items.

This recently changed. I now require Wizards to spend Arcane Reagents to level up. Residuum can be substituted, as normal. What's a great source of Residuum?

Magic items.

I don't know what kind of economic impact that would have on the setting, but I think it's in the realm of "now I can handwave away magic item merchants."

Wizard wants to learn a new spell? Gotta go raid a dungeon.

Fighter wants to get a new trick? Gotta go raid a dungeon.

Cleric wants to get a new miracle? Gotta go raid a dungeon.

You don't get to choose what powers you get. You get what you get. You don't gain any unique abilities from leveling up.

Every power you get, of course, is wondrous and weird and a little complicated.

This is highly gamist -- folks who are a fan of storytelling in their D&D probably wouldn't be a fan of it. Similarly, folks who are into gearhead build-making won't enjoy it much.

I think that's a cool idea. It's something I wanted to implement in my 4E (or so) game, but haven't done a good job of. Basically, you gain access to only PHB feats, powers, etc.; if you want other ones, you have to find them in the game world. (As it turns out, this means the DM has to put those things in the game world. That's why it's not working out so well.)

I think you underestimate the power of that rule for non-gamist play. Storytelling guys could have choices that have a lot of thematic value; simmers could have choices that reflect what their characters have done. The systems might have the same base but they'd look different.

 

[delericho]

Sadly, I've met just one DM who sympathizes with this idea. "Just give bonuses away? Ha!" And I'm pretty sure the one DM only gives us inherent bonuses because he's running Dark Sun.

To be fair, I'm also strongly leaning towards the opinion that the bonuses across the board should be lower.

In 3e, things could get really out of hand really quickly - by 3rd level a character could have a +20 Hide modifier using Core Rules only and without magic items (Halfling with Dex 20 can have 6 ranks, +5 for Dex, +4 for Small, +2 for Stealthy feat, +3 for Skill Focus feat). And the difference between a specialist and a non-specialist often meant that at high levels one character might succeed on a '2' where another needed a '20', and that only if 20 was an auto-success!

I'm less familiar with 4e in general, but it does seem to be a bit better. However, it does seem to be rife with all manner of ways to eke out just another +1 here or there...

 

[S'mon]

True in 3e; I think 4e nerfed magic items enough to make it not an issue, except when a PC dug up some overpowered Dragon mag item and demanded to buy it. And Essentials solved that with a limited approved list of 'common' items, so players can still have their fun buying stuff while most magic is properly returned to the hands of the DM, where it belongs.

 

[S'mon]

Of course considering the obscene amount of gold even a low-level magic item costs, Magic marts are utterly ridiculous as is the whole economy. I mean, why are thieves starving? Only because they steal from commoners and not even lowly third level adventurers.

I love, love how in 4e +1 weapons, armour and protective amulets cost 360gp, and quick-sell at 1/5 that - a whopping 72gp. Suddenly it's perfectly plausible for low level NPCs to be outfitted with these 1st level magic items; indeed I've taken to giving NPCs of level 6-10 this +1 gear by default (as per 4e DMG's rules on NPC inherent bonuses). In the case of the + 1 swords and armour, they are basically the equivalent of 3e 'masterwork' gear, probably made by regular smiths who perhaps work a little magic into their craft through prayer and ritual. Bit of a problem with the throwing weapons that return after every attack, but I can always say they only do that for PC-type characters, drawing more on the inherent humunguosness of the wielder.

 

[S'mon]

Of course, peasants can just buy regular weapons too - like swords and armour - and overthrow their despotic leaders the old-fashioned way, because there's probably a weaponsmith selling normal boring weapons in every town too. This is why in medieval times, it was illegal for peasants to have swords - so they had their trusty quarterstaff instead.

It was more that the sword became a symbol of aristocracy. In the hands of a peasant, an axe or especially a spear is probably better anyway. Spears are brilliant in the hands of men who aren't used to killing other men; all you have to do is move forward - or even just remain standing, if the other guy is coming at you - and the point does the rest! Which gets around the problem that most humans, like other animals, are psychologically adverse to killing each other and need to be trained out of it.

 

[S'mon]

No, the REAL reason DMs don't want Magic Mart is that they are non-union shops. You let one WAL-MAGIC in and the mom and pop magic stores go out of business, then the local economy starts to depend upon the WAL-MAGIC for everything, potions, weapons, armor, misc; it's a death spiral for the economic stability of a campaign village. Of course, the non-union employees, mean that crafting guilds are pushed out by unfair price fixing and volume buying, even though most of their items are made by kobolds in sweat shops just above the underdark.

Though the real problem is illegal goblinoid immigrants posing as standard humanoids while working without the permission of the host campaign city or their representative/monarchic/autocratic/etc governments.

(Everyone did notice the LAUGH tag, right?)

If I ever ran Eberron, I would definitely use this!

I would also have goblinoids 'squatting' in the PCs' castle when they came back from an adventure, and thanks to the Squatter's Rights laws (the goblins have hired a Goblin Rights Lawyer) the PCs would have to engage in lengthy and expensive court action to evict them, only to find the castle completely trashed when they finally took possession. Laying a hand on any of the 'protected tenants' would result in severe legal penalties.

 

[S'mon]

Well that would fit if you could go to Walmart and order a M-60 or an M1Abrams tank, not some hunting rifle or an orange hunting vest.

The semi-auto hunting rifles and 12-gauge repeating shotguns they do actually sell in Walmart (at least in TN) would be regarded as heavy firepower in most of the world, or everywhere through 99% of human history. It's all relative.

 

[billd91]

In 3e, things could get really out of hand really quickly - by 3rd level a character could have a +20 Hide modifier using Core Rules only and without magic items (Halfling with Dex 20 can have 6 ranks, +5 for Dex, +4 for Small, +2 for Stealthy feat, +3 for Skill Focus feat). And the difference between a specialist and a non-specialist often meant that at high levels one character might succeed on a '2' where another needed a '20', and that only if 20 was an auto-success!

I'm less familiar with 4e in general, but it does seem to be a bit better. However, it does seem to be rife with all manner of ways to eke out just another +1 here or there...

It isn't that much better. I've got a rogue with a 16 point spread between his hightest and lowest skills.

 

[TarionzCousin]

One good thing magic marts do is provide us with an interesting selection of what their customers look like.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I don't mind magic marts, inherently. I have run campaigns where they did not fit, and other campaigns where it was irrelevant, and yet other campaigns where they were rather crucial to the feel. Maybe that's just me, but I like my variety within an otherwise rather narrow slice of the fantasy genre. I'd rather have magic marts one time and not have them the next, than have magic swords one time and blaster rifles the next.

Likewise, I'm perfectly fine with point-buy systems (magic item based or other), as long as I'm in the mood to approve character power choice. Sometimes, I'd rather just let the players handle that fully.

My username? The not quite right in his head Jerome got that way dimension hopping in his fabled magic item emporium--"never in the same place twice!" He could get you anything you wanted, provided that you could wait long enough for him to go through his pocket dimension warehouse, return to the front desk, and remember which door out of his warehouse went to that particular store front.

The first time, the players waited two days in the store, then broke into his warehouse. After that scarring experience, they decided the second time to wait him out. (That Fafhrd and Gray Mouser story with the magical shop, was channeled heavily that day. ) They gave up after a few weeks, and noticing that the store had moved during that time. First time it hit back somewhere that looked familiar, they booked out. They did get the item later, on another continent, when CJ's emporium appeared down an alley.

CJ is one of only two NPCs that I've blatantly used from campaign to campaign, some of them otherwise totally unrelated and set in another world. So now, even when I have a perfectly mundane, rather Magic Mart-ish shop, the players still don't trust it.