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Why do all classes have to be balanced?

GreyICE

Banned
Banned
Great. So perhaps the problem isn't the wizard, it's certain specialized ways to play the wizard? I mean, you're sitting here talking about how it's in the nature of the wizard to overwhelm other players, and my real-life example gets dismissed as how I should play it better. (And no, it wasn't evocation; it was a conjuration spell.)

In combat, it is obvious that a shotgun is a superior weapon to a sword.

That doesn't mean you can't blow your own foot off.

If you choose not to take a specialist (an option presented in the PHB), choose to take blaster spells over far superior Save or Suck spells, and generally make a series of bad decisions, sure, a Wizard can suck. Every blaster wizard does it with regularity. The fact of the matter is though, just because you can fill every slot in your spell book with some silly spell that does damage to enemies doesn't mean that's the smart way to play.

As for what a Druid does to a fighter... heh.
 

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prosfilaes

Adventurer
If you choose not to take a specialist (an option presented in the PHB), choose to take blaster spells over far superior Save or Suck spells, and generally make a series of bad decisions, sure, a Wizard can suck. Every blaster wizard does it with regularity. The fact of the matter is though, just because you can fill every slot in your spell book with some silly spell that does damage to enemies doesn't mean that's the smart way to play.

So basically you're telling me that WotC totally changed the foundations of the game, instead of nerfing a few spells? I'm not sure why you think people will be happy that the entire game had to be changed to fix a problem that didn't affect them, and that the response to that is that you were playing the game stupidly.
 

GreyICE

Banned
Banned
So basically you're telling me that WotC totally changed the foundations of the game, instead of nerfing a few spells? I'm not sure why you think people will be happy that the entire game had to be changed to fix a problem that didn't affect them, and that the response to that is that you were playing the game stupidly.

No, I'm not telling you that in the least. I'm telling you that the average wizard could replace any class outside of the cleric or druid by using his spell book, and the features that let him do that were integral to the versatility and power that define a 3E wizard. I am also telling you that the Druid and Cleric were a much, much bigger problem, in that they both totally obliterated any role the fighter had in the party, and that was simply unfixable in the 3E system (the Druid was more powerful than the fighter IF YOU REMOVED HIS SPELLCASTING ABILITY).

The 3E system was broken, and it was quite easy to realize for most of the player base. Just poll the players who have several years of experience with the game, and ask how many build a pure fighter (taking nothing but fighter levels). I have yet to meet one who builds one for a long-term campaign. They will build a variety of interesting classes, but they never touch the fighter with a 10 ft. pole.

4E's changes were for far more than mere balance purposes. They gave everyone (fighters and wizards alike) interesting options to use every round of combat, from level 1 on forward (rather than 'I attack' or 'I miss them with my sling' (god low level casters). They encouraged teamwork, and made a healing model that works and works well. They allowed players to actually defend their party, and stop monsters from attacking their friends outright, by means other than killing them. They encouraged tactical thinking and teamwork that allowed well coordinated players to execute all sorts of maneuvers, and made combat more than 'stand and swing' or 'stand and cast.' They made a fluid, dynamic combat model which involved plenty of motion. They nerfed out-of-combat spells that replaced clever usage of skills, and centralized the 'situational' spells that were kept on wands and scrolls into rituals that could do all sorts of nifty things, but did not unbalance combat.

So no, 4E changes weren't done solely because the entire basis of 3E was broken. That was just one of the things they fixed.
 
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So basically you're telling me that WotC totally changed the foundations of the game, instead of nerfing a few spells? I'm not sure why you think people will be happy that the entire game had to be changed to fix a problem that didn't affect them, and that the response to that is that you were playing the game stupidly.

High-level Fighters and their sub-classes are the only class in the game to attack more than once in a round. They have the highest hit points, so can last minutes in combat with powerful monsters. Their saving throws are so good that they'll shake off most things thrown at them, with the only likely effects being things that happen even if the save is made. They have a pretty good number of skills useable out of combat. They have the widest range of magical gear available to them.

You might not like being reminded of it, but 3rd edition made drastic changes to how the game worked too.
 

Steely_Dan

First Post
I don't know about you, but without some incredible houserules or running Pathfinder, this was the basic experience in 3.x. The caster could literally do everything anyone in the party could do, better, faster and more often.

So, old, please stop it.

it's become so passe, this whole fighters held the wizard's jockstrap thing...never happened, once, in any campaign I've been in.

This weird urban myth, to me, has really taken off with some.
 

Great. So perhaps the problem isn't the wizard, it's certain specialized ways to play the wizard? I mean, you're sitting here talking about how it's in the nature of the wizard to overwhelm other players, and my real-life example gets dismissed as how I should play it better. (And no, it wasn't evocation; it was a conjuration spell.)

No. The problem is people not using certain specialist ways to play the wizard. The wizard playstyle that's the problem is what I consider the default one. There are two basic wizard playstyles: Blast Mage and Problem Solver. If you play as a blast mage there is no problem. If you play a wizard thinking "I'm smart. I have magic. How can I make this challenge easy or this enemy almost irrelevant." Then you have problems. And to me the Problem Solver style is the default.

So basically you're telling me that WotC totally changed the foundations of the game, instead of nerfing a few spells? I'm not sure why you think people will be happy that the entire game had to be changed to fix a problem that didn't affect them, and that the response to that is that you were playing the game stupidly.

The problem goes waaaay beyond a few spells. And involves both legacy D&D problems and a whole lot of problems from 3.X. It's not just a few spells that need nerfing. It's an entire conceptual overhaul, and undoing about half the changes made turning 2e into 3.0.



Classic D&D Problems

Linear Fighter/Quadratic Wizard.
A high level wizard was known to be more powerful than a high level fighter and a low level fighter more than a low level wizard. This was a problem in itself but one that was accepted and understood. The fundamental problem levelling is that the fighter basically gets better with a pointy piece of metal, whereas the wizard gets both more spells and more powerful spells. And a lot of those spells are about ways to make people waving pointy pieces of metal irrelevant.

Adventurer/Conquerer/King
At about level 10 (depending on class) the published game entered the endgame. Your hit points stopped rising and you gained either a tower for a wizard or land and an army for a fighter. This was about the point where the wizard left the fighter in the dust anyway. Note that 3.X removed this cap.


1e wasn't balanced.

Which is why Gygax added Specialisation and the two commonly thought to be overpowered fighter variants in Unearthed Arcana - I can dig up a link where he agrees with this if you need it. 2e kept the fighter specialisation fix - but added specialist wizards, who gain massive power (at least 25% to the number of spells they can cast per day, and 50-100% to the most powerful spells) for a little versatility.









Problems added by 3.X
Note that this list is not exclusive to wizards - almost every problem I'm listing for wizards also applies to clerics and druids.


Hit point inflation.

The way Con is used has changed. Whereas a wizard would start with 1d4hp in 1e they probably start with about 6 in 3e. And monsters have many more hit points. To illustrate, a 2e Ogre gets 4+1 HD or 19hp. A 3.X Ogre gets 29 hp or more than 50% more. So it takes half as much damage again to kill an ogre in 3e as 2e. But Fireball is doing the same 1d6/level damage it was in 2e so does comparatively much less damage. In playtesting this probably offset the spell count inflation. (Note: Ogres are simply the first monster that came to mind). Fighters of course have to go straight through the inflated HP.



And a wall of stone is a wall of stone. It doesn't care much about hit point inflation. Likewise any other spell to bypass or entirely render irrelevant the monsters.



Caster Versatility 1: Spell count inflation.

A decent spellcasting stat adds a spell per level. So a 1e 5th level wizard would have one third level spell per day. A 3.X 5th level specialist wizard gets three.


Caster Versatility 2: Free Spells for Wizards

In 3.X a wizard gets two free spells of his choice per level and starts off with about half a dozen L1. This is new and means that the wizard isn't dependent on the DM for spell selection. And can pick an entire pile of good spells.


Castger Versatility 3: Scribe Scroll (free for Wizards)

All wizards get Scribe Scroll for free - and scribing almost any scroll takes only a day - if you aren't getting the odd day off from adventuring you're likely to be suffering from PTSD. This means that you don't have to prepare spells like Knock - a smart wizard can wander around with all the advantages of having a couple of knock spells prepared for the one day in thirty when the rogue taps out without it costing him any actual daily spell slots. (Of which he has far more)



Caster Versatility 4: Prep time
In 3.X a caster is prepared in an hour. Period. In older editions it took longer at higher levels. Much longer.



Caster Versatility 5: No Drawbacks
Haste used to age you by a year per casting. Hellloooo System Shock roll. No one cast that. Teleport used to go offtrack and potentially kill you. I could go on. 3.X took away almost all those backlashes. (Mordaniken's Disjunction being the only one to come to mind).



Saving Throw Changes 1: Homogenisation of difficulty by effect

If you convert AD&D saving throws into 3.X saving throws, The save vs spell DC is about 17. But save or suck, being more powerful, is normally a save vs death magic or poison of DC14, or a save vs polymorph or petrification of DC15. This is a fairly significant relative boost to the effectiveness of non-damaging spells over damaging ones.



Saving Throw Changes 2: Inflation of DC by Wizards
A DC of 17 looks about right when converting the fireball save at L5. Level 3 spell, Int 16, +2 Int Item. Now. Let's say that we've got a conjurer who started at Int 17 and focusses in Conjuration. He's now Int 18 + 2 (or even +4). He's taken Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration) - if you're going to specialise in it anyway, why not? We're at DC20 and it's only going to rise with his level and with the spell level. A three point swing is a lot. And then the spell level goes up over time, so does Int, so does the stat boosting item.



Saving Throw Changes 3: Choice of targets
The wizard is once again confronted with our ogre. Who is big and burly. Turns out an Ogre has saves of Fort +6, Ref + 0, and Will +1. (The 2e Ogre had effective saves of +1 in all categories). With a save of +6 in Fort, the ogre saves against the stinking cloud from the specialist caster on a 14 - in 2e he'd be saving on 13. Here things have balanced out even with the optimisation. But this is a worst case scenario. Our wizard is going to remember that Stinking Cloud isn't the only spell on his list and instead go for Glitterdust. It's one spell level lower. So DC 19. But that means the ogre needs a 18 or he's out for the next five rounds, swinging wildly. A five point swing by using a lower level spell. Pretty hard to do in 2e.


Saving throw changes 4: The Fighter Nerf
In AD&D, at high level, the fighter had the best saves. Especially against death or suck effects. All between +11 and +13 - and he got there at level 17 which was four levels before anyone else capped out. In 3.X the fighter has arguably the worst saves in the game - only one high save out of the three (at +12), and the Rogue gets Evasion to boost his whereas the Wizard gets defensive spells. And with one stat being boosted as the character levels, the offensive stat is the obvious choice - meaning that the fighter's saving throws aren't going to get this boost when offensive spells are.


Non-Wizard spellcaster changes: The Cleric
The cleric gets nine levels of spells with Miracle at level 9. Previously the cleric got 7 and started casting later - also needing to prepare heals rather than convert to them. And can prepare from anything on the entire cleric list.



Non-Wizard spellcaster changes: The Druid
This class needs to die in a fire - or rather to be broken up for parts. D&D 4e broke it into three classes - all viable. There's the nature-priest healer with an animal companion and a little magic. There's the shapeshifter. And there's the spellcaster. The Druid was probably the worst case as it required almost no work to be broken. The animal companion wasn't as good a fighter as the fighter, granted. It didn't need to be - because if it was a brown bear and close to the fighter's combat potential, the druid could be a second brown bear. And then the druid had a decent spell list, able to cast 9th level spells and with the Polymorph Chain.








So that's where the overhaul 3.X needed came from. A vast set of changes that stacked.

 

GreyICE

Banned
Banned
So, old, please stop it.

it's become so passe, this whole fighters held the wizard's jockstrap thing...never happened, once, in any campaign I've been in.

This weird urban myth, to me, has really taken off with some.

Lemme offer you a simple contest then.

We design 5 encounters, balanced for a 6th level character, together. A 6th level barbarian, a group of orks, some sort of golem, a good mix.

Then I make a 6th level Druid. You make a 6th level Fighter. We throw them at the encounters, one after the other. No time for rests to replenish spells (though we'll let them both replenish HP for free, that's pretty much what wands of CLW do).

I'll even be nice and eschew venomfire and greenbound summoning.

So what do you say? Since it's an Urban Legend that a caster can do anything a fighter can do, your brilliant fighter should be able to show himself in combat, at low levels, better than a Druid can (since certainly that same fighter has practically zero out-of-combat utility, which is not the case at all for a Druid).
 

Grimmjow

First Post
idk to me it sounds like they are not going to balance them, they are just going to make the stronger classes more difficult to play.
 


hanez

First Post
Lemme offer you a simple contest then.

We design 5 encounters, balanced for a 6th level character, together. A 6th level barbarian, a group of orks, some sort of golem, a good mix.

Then I make a 6th level Druid. You make a 6th level Fighter. We throw them at the encounters, one after the other. No time for rests to replenish spells (though we'll let them both replenish HP for free, that's pretty much what wands of CLW do).

I'll even be nice and eschew venomfire and greenbound summoning.

So what do you say? Since it's an Urban Legend that a caster can do anything a fighter can do, your brilliant fighter should be able to show himself in combat, at low levels, better than a Druid can (since certainly that same fighter has practically zero out-of-combat utility, which is not the case at all for a Druid).

I would be up for this, I think the results might be revealing.

Although I would have thought we'd used the wizard, thats traditionally the class thats bemoaned about. I suspect you picked the druid because there are problems with the druid in 3.x, which recieved so much needed attention in pathfinder.

What I find a problem is when people argue that the magic/vancian system is incompatible with the at will fighter. A better therefore would be either a 3.x wizard vs fighter, or a druid vs fighter from pathfinder.
 

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