Why do DM's like Dark, gritty worlds and players the opposite?

[Akaiku]

I've found this generally true as well. The "moral quandary" moments most DMs try to set up often come down to choosing a kick to the head or a kick to the testicles. However, that's dime-store morality; any DM can set up a can't win situation.

The second is what gets me. I found a lot of grim, dark, low-magic GMs come real close to saying "This world is grim and dark. FOR YOU! I will continue to use the Monster Manual and create NPC wizards as normal" I don't mind settings where the deck is stacked, or even where magic is rare and NO one really has any, but settings where you are expected to fight liches with only a party of fighters (no rangers or paladins allowed), a half-sorcerer/half rogue (mandatory equal levels) and a +1 butterknife is NOT the definition of fun I like.

Ya, that is how I feel.

Plus, the whole player/dm adversarial situation is not cool to be the player, as it's against someone with infinite power and such. The rules do state when you die or lose as a player. It doesn't say how you win forever. Moreso, the gm can 'win' by simply making a player loose. Especally if its not the whole party. And sometimes even if it is, the gm is still fine if the 'show goes on'.

Players have characters, gm's have stories. How many times does grim and gritty kill gm's stories prematurely compared to pcs?

 

[Desdichado]

They too, like the grittier worlds rather than having a world that looks like the cantina scene from Star Wars.

That's an interesting non sequiter. What does the diversity of player races (I presume that's what you mean by Star Wars cantina scene) have to do with grittiness? The two are completely unrelated.

You have no way of knowing they don't either. So right back at you: why do you think that's not true?

Personal experience. The relative popularity of several gritty games. The popularity of lower level D&D, which is demonstrably more gritty, yet which is demonstrably more popular.

In any case, the idea that there is no bias on grittiness of GMs vs. players is the null hypothesis. I don't need to prove that it's true; I'm just curious why someone would state that it isn't.

 

[Oryan77]

To avoid the issue, the DM should probably give the players information about the setting before letting the players start to develop their character OR get player feedback and build the world based on that information.

Man, I so wish that would work. I've probably had 2 dozen players in my Planescape game in the past 7 years. Planescape has about 5 fairly short Player's Guide books that are actually interesting to read. You could finish a book in about 30 minutes. I provide pdfs of these books to every single new player that joins the group. Out of about 24 players, 24 of them never read a single one of those books. I even have the original copies in the game room, but nobody has ever asked to borrow one. I bet if they had neato power options for their PCs they'd read them

I've never seen a player study up on a campaign outside of a game. One of these players once yelled at me during a game and said this:

Her: "You keep saying my PC does or doesn't know this or that about this plane. How am I supposed to know what she knows if you've never told me!?!"

Me: "I gave you the player guides to read. Everything your character would know would be in those guides."

Her: "So now you're telling me to do ******* homework!!!"

Me: "I gave you the books so you can learn things on your own time. I told you all the basics about the campaign that I could think to tell you. If you want details, you have to read the books, learn it in-game, or ask me questions outside of the game. The books are optional, if you choose not to read them, that is perfectly fine. But you can't blame me because you have a lack of knowledge about the campaign."

 

[The Ghost]

1. We get tired of losing all the time. In a gritty world, the DM gets to win sometimes. I know D&D doesn't have a formal winning or losing, but in actual practice the relationship is sometimes adversarial. A DM can't obviously win by throwing dragons at a level 1 party, he has to win within the confines and expectations of the game. A gritty game or world allows the DM to come closer to winning than in a more normal game, and that is attractive, even if we don't like to admit it.

I have never thought that a DM "winning" means the PCs "loosing". To me, a DM winning is when the players come up to me after a game and say "Thanks, I had an awesome time!".

 

[Oryan77]

I'm kinda confused about this whole topic.

People are relating grime & gritty to character builds or the difficulty of the campaign?

I assumed by grime & gritty we were talking about the game world itself and the characters that live in it...the roleplaying and fluff aspects. Not the mechanics or the playing habits of players/DMs.

 

[Pierson_Lowgal]

Why do DM's tend like Dark, gritty worlds and players like colorful worlds where they can do/play anything?

My experience generally matches this. I think some of the disagree'ers, not the folks who went for the all-gritty answer, are focusing on the "win-button" or multi-racial hyperbole too much.

Players want to their PC's to be winners. Winners tend to live in brighter worlds. Gritty worlds produce lots of compromise and death and hard feelings.

Why GM's like gritty? I'm less sure. I think complex, gray-worlds where the PC's make tough choices is more interesting for a GM to write, at least the kind of GM who visits ENWorld.

 

[weem]

I have never thought that a DM "winning" means the PCs "loosing". To me, a DM winning is when the players comes up to me after a game and say "Thanks, I had an awesome time!".

Yea, this is what I tell my players pretty much as well - "My job is to make sure you guys have a blast - I love running the game so it's pretty much a given that I am having a good time already."

Of course as a DM my job is to mediate the game etc, but my players regulate themselves well as far as the rules go and they play together very well so my big focus is to make sure they have a good time - at least as good of a time as I am having

 

[pawsplay]

I do not agree with the basic premise of the OP. I think players and DMs vary in their preferences. Further, individuals may enjoy more than one kind of game.

 

[Garthanos]

Players want to their PC's to be winners. Winners tend to live in brighter worlds. Gritty worlds produce lots of compromise and death and hard feelings.

There we have a point made!

 

[Garthanos]

I do not agree with the basic premise of the OP. I think players and DMs vary in their preferences. Further, individuals may enjoy more than one kind of game.

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