Why do DM's like Dark, gritty worlds and players the opposite?

[TheAuldGrump]

Why the need for rules to support "Grim & Gritty" play? Can I not play it as a overriding theme or mood?



From Merriam-Webster:

Grim ~ 2b. Somber, Gloomy; 3. Ghastly, Repellent, or Sinister in Character

Gritty ~ 2. Courageously Persistent: Plucky

Most players I know enjoy playing the "Plucky" character; however, I will grant that not everyone appreciates a Somber or Gloomy tone to the game.

Many arguments come down to differing definitions - and I have no arguments with these.
The world should be Grim, the heroes should be Gritty, though hopefully not in the 'sand in the peanut butter' sense.

The Auld Grump, 'cause dragons hate that....

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Real world physics? People die falling out of a window or from being bitten by a poisonous spider or snake. They get paralyzed falling off a horse. They go into shock if they get shot. They die from a single knife wound. They break arms, legs, and ribs that put them out of action for WEEKS. And they break their necks falling down the stairs. It doesn't always happen, but for true "realism," all that has to be "possible." But if it were, most characters in an action-oriented game wouldn't make it through even 1 adventure.

Entirely true: a fall from a tree can result in ignoble death in a truly gritty system (such as the Real World). But flip that around: more interestingly, a fall from an airplane occasionally doesn't result in death. In real life, people do survive buildings crumpled by earthquakes, or miraculously recover from terminal cancers, or get struck by lightning multiple times, or survive hails of bullets, or walk or of train wrecks with nary a scratch.

To my mind, these things are remarkable because life is, well, lethal.

Likewise in a game. There's little heroic if the hero get off scott free everytime something bad happens.

That's why I had followed up my original statement with the question about action points, or similar mechanics that provide a limited resource a player can use to counterbalance the inevitable, crushing defeats that comes with grittiness. I like things like hero points, death flags, fate, and related mecahnics because those sorts of devices allow (at least in principle) the PC to function in a truly dangerous environment, while reserving for the player a great deal of creative control over exactly how and when his PC can be the hero. Spending such a "fate point" (or whatever) sort of models those people who survive falling from airplanes in a world where just falling off a ladder can kill. In other words, despite the lethality of the system, the PC's wellbeing is still largely up to the player - just so long as he doesn't play the "get out of imminent horrible destruction" card too much. I guess I just see it as a way to let the grimdarkers have their cake and eat it, too. Most of the time. Almost.

Anyway, that's just my 2cp worth of opinionizing.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Entirely true: a fall from a tree can result in ignoble death in a truly gritty system (such as the Real World). But flip that around: more interestingly, a fall from an airplane occasionally doesn't result in death. In real life, people do survive buildings crumpled by earthquakes, or miraculously recover from terminal cancers, or get struck by lightning multiple times, or survive hails of bullets, or walk or of train wrecks with nary a scratch.

True. But these things happen so rarely that if a system is even remotely "realistic" then they will never happen to your character the entire time you are playing. Unless there are mechanics that make them very likely to happen. Which makes the system no longer gritty.

If you don't have enough "hero points" or "fate points" or whatever to get out of every dangerous thing that happens to you, then you are inevitably going to die some ignoble death. They just delay it.

If you do have enough "hero points" to get out of every dangerous thing that happens to you, then you aren't even remotely realistic anymore and the system isn't gritty.

Gritty is more of a feeling. It requires that the characters ACT like they are scared for their life every time they are in danger even though the mechanics of the game are such that they are NEVER in any danger. Your mileage may vary on whether this is a good thing or not.

 

[Hussar]

If Gritty=Plucky, then fair enough. Most games I've played are gritty by that definition.

Since we're playing "Pick and Choose" with dictionary definitions, as I said earlier, I see gritty as:

3. realistic, hard-hitting, unsentimental, unromantic a gritty film about inner-city deprivation

So, while I find gritty as plucky to be a good thing, the overwhelming majority of examples of "gritty" games or settings take the latter definition. Warhammer RPG being a pretty good example. 1e D&D is often also held up as being "gritty" because of the plethora of ways of dying pretty quickly.

The problem with critical hits and failures is that it punishes the players. The baddies are only one stage once (usually) and they're going to die. The PC's have to survive every time. The longer you play, the greater the chances that the dice gods declare you dead.

On Hero/Action points. LOVE them. In my last 3e campaign, I allowed players to turn any fatal attack to instead leaving them stable at -9 in exchange for all remaining Action Points. So, if you were out of AP's, you died or, if the entire party went down, you'd all die. However, it made death a very rare thing.

 

[Garthanos]

If Gritty=Plucky, then fair enough. Most games I've played are gritty by that definition.

and is probably not the one most often meant.

So, while I find gritty as plucky to be a good thing, the overwhelming majority of examples of "gritty" games or settings take the latter definition. Warhammer RPG being a pretty good example. 1e D&D is often also held up as being "gritty" because of the plethora of ways of dying pretty quickly.

However --- dirt and detail is also gritty where you describe every flicker of light and the sound of characters breathing and sweating and the smell of fear... the location and blood of specific wounds... could also be grit.... a gritty game can also be morally messy with ambiguous definitions of good and evil. (notice their are no mechanical requirements for this)... it can be story tone by narrative... Are there mechanics which inhibit this ... yup detect evil anyone?

I am fond of the mechanics which inhibit the lethality of the game... and having minions in 4e to highlight that heros are special in this regard is very useful (ally minions do show the fragility of the everyman - are yummy).

 

[The Ghost]

Since we're playing "Pick and Choose" with dictionary definitions, as I said earlier, I see gritty as...

And this is why we have so much miscommunication in these types of debates - everyone has their definition of what these words mean. I am not saying that that is the only definition of what "Grim & Gritty" means but it is certainly one possible definition. And it needs to be considered as well as other interpretations.

 

[Hussar]

And this is why we have so much miscommunication in these types of debates - everyone has their definition of what these words mean. I am not saying that that is the only definition of what "Grim & Gritty" means but it is certainly one possible definition. And it needs to be considered as well as other interpretations.

And fair enough.

If Gritty=Plucky or determined, then I don't think anyone has an issue with a gritty campaign. In fact, I'd argue that nearly every campaign out there is gritty by this definition since nearly every campaign out there has PC's challenging dangerous odds in order to achieve some sort of goal. If the PC's weren't plucky or determined, they'd be at home tending the farm.

On the grim side of things, I don't think there's any argument particularly. There are a plethora of grim settings out there - Ravenloft being a well known example, and one of my favorite settings, Scarred Lands is certainly on the grimmer side of things - that are quite popular. So, IMO, it's not the grim side of the equation that causes problems for groups.

The gritty side, if you define gritty as "a sort of realistic portrayal" does tend to cause issues however.