Why do elves suck?

[Moon-Lancer]

well lotr made the iconic d&d adventuring party, not the idea of a group itself. And far as d&ds iconic dwarves go, isn't that just Gimli? We all know that all red dragons are smog.

Its not fair to say folk lore is the sources when its clear that d&d and lotr both came to alot of the same conclusions? me thinks that Tolkien or at least the end product of d&d merely looked at what influenced Tolkien and listed that.

Im not saying d&d IS lotr, but to say that d&d bares not resemblance to it is a far fetched, considering alot of the base classes and races are strait from lotr.

If you have other sources to contribute and how that influenced d&d i am very welcome to hear of it, but so I only have have prismatic spry on that list.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

No-one said that The Lord of the Rings didn't influence Dungeons & Dragons. What I flatly deny - because it's simply a bunch of crap - is that idea that Tolkien is responsible for everything:

he dident just set the foreground for d&d, also set the background. Stupid magic rings and old temples!!!!! stupid demons coming from forgotten cities!!!! Stupid ancient evil!!!! stupid Wizard with swords!!!!

Tolkien's magic ring comes straight outta Wagner, and his dwarves are Germanic/Norse.

Are there even any old temples anywhere in Tolkien? In any case, you talk about "old temples", "demons" and "forgotten cities" and anyone who knows anything about the history of fantasy knows that Robert E. Howard, Jack Vance, and Fritz Leiber - among others - were writing about that long before Tolkien.

Howard and Leiber wrote in the Thirties, and the first Dying Earth book by Vance was published in 1950, before the first publication of The Lord of the Rings (albeit well after The Hobbit in 1937, but then that book is less D&Dish than the trilogy proper).

Ancient evil is a pretty nebulous concept to be identifying as an element of D&D that comes from Tolkien. There's no Sauron in Greyhawk - the closest thing, Iuz, is only superficially similar, in that he's an evil overlord ruling a kingdom, but he's more like a god- or demon-king than Sauron. The great evil powers of the earliest D&D sources have more to do with mythological and sword-and-sorcery antagonists than anything else. Lovecraft, too - Tharizdun, for instance.

As for wizards with swords, come on! Wizards couldn't even use swords until Third Edition, for the gods' sake.

The concept of memorising spells comes directly from Jack Vance's Dying Earth stories, as do spells like prismatic spray and others. Barbarians are pretty clearly inspired by Conan and others, including Fafhrd from Leiber's stories. Reptile- and frog-men come from Howard and other sword-and-sorcery types, too. D&D thieves are way more influenced by Leiber's Gray Mouser than by the hobbits.

The D&D paladin, swanmay, and troll come from Three Hearts and Three Lions by Poul Anderson. The original Law - Neutrality - Chaos alignment axis comes from that story and from Michael Moorcock's Elric stories and other Eternal Champion multiverse tales.

 

[Dark Jezter]

It's too bad that you can't fork threads here like you can at Circvs Maximvs, because this thread is seriously getting derailed (which I, admittedly, contributed to).

 

[wildstarsreach]

If you use the suggested FAQ for the change in favored class as Duskblade, then the suck less. The PrC Bladesinger sucks sor the Gish and the EK builds are power flavor rather than theme. I find that even though the Duskblade is powerful, it is relative at certain levels. 3-8 and 13-15. After that it begins to be seriously deluted.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

surly you jest... and just where would this thread lead if it had not? a romantic story about a fictional holocaust? sorry i just find it hard to believe that this thread was leading someplace that wasen't a overheated inferno. anyway um sorry about the mess.

mhacdebhandia, i respect what you say, and I think that you are right for the most part. However I also think though that their would have not been a want or a will to find these forgotten tombs, had Tolkien not popularized fantasy. I do think though Tolkien had great influence in leading path to these older stories. I think he played a large role in create the want for d&d with elves, dwarvs, and wizards. I think he had great influence regardless if he was used as a primary source or not.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Perhaps I have been saved. I don't play mmorpg's so I dont know these raving fan boys. Nore do I know very many gamers so I don't know any elven fan boys personally. in fact i have never EVER seen or met one online or otherwise. I have however met lots of people that think dwarves or halflings are somehow better then sliced bread though. I don't hold it against them.

QFT

Couldn't describe my attitude and experiences any better than that. Except perhaps for the last line, however.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

lol

*edit*

eh, I think you could have. I'm a typo master.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Wow. I'm really amazed at how many people have come into a thread that stated "Elves Suck!" just to say "No they don't! You're mean!". Seriously... If you want to proclaim your love of elves, start your own thread instead of getting your panties in a bunch over what non-elf lovers have said in this one.

Well, if it weren't for the stupidity and diluted relevance of the arguments, I wouldn't mind so much. Ripping on 3.5 elves for a book from the early 90's? Just who is it that has their panties in a bunch? Further, I dispute your point about people coming in here just to argue. I saw the thread title and thought it would be a discussion of why they suck mechanically, something I already professed to believe in my previous post. But, upon seeing the idiotic (and biased) poll options, I felt the need to respond. Everyone has a right to post in a thread if their post is relevant, and trying to tell those who disagree with the OP to just go away and start a new thread is vile. Not only that, but that new thread would just end up as an attack on this thread, creating even more hostility than if people just debated the issue in the thread as mature adults.

Finally, I don't "love" elves. I merely enjoy the basic concept of a long-lived, intellectually superior race that is elitist. Why? I don't know, maybe for the same reason I find myself rooting for the well-played villains, like Xykon in order of the stick, if you're familiar. Has anyone here ever even tried to play a foppish noble? It's just so much fun! And it's alos challenging, as you have to maintain your attitude of superiority without actually saying or doing something irritating enough to actually push someone "over the edge" and try to kill you. Truly, a mental tight-rope walk if ever there was one.

 

[airwalkrr]

elves don't suck

 

[Doug McCrae]

No-one said that The Lord of the Rings didn't influence Dungeons & Dragons.

You did.

Gary Freaking Gygax didn't take his inspirations from Tolkien