Why do I complain about 4E?

[Najo]

No, its not fear or close mindedness. 3e may not have been perfect (and it isn't) . However, give me the core three books, Unearthed Arcana ( action points, weapon groups, specialist wizard abilities, class variants, death and dying, spontaneous divine casting), the Book of Iron Might (for maneuvers and stunts), Element's of Magic (Revised or Mythic Earth) and the Artificer's Handbook (Mystic Eye Games) and I can happily run a game that I feel is better than 4e will ever be. The only real major change would be the magic system.

Granted, I would use the Psychic's Handbook, Shaman's Handbook, and Witch's Handbook Advanced Bestiary, MM2, and Fiend Folio, and I would still want class based defense, removing level loss, and fixing the problems with saves bonuses for multiclassing. However, the books I mentioned initially, would give me the core game I desire without having to make any major changes outside of replacing the magic system. Ans EOM would tone down spellcasters while providing spellcasters flexability and simulating the fantasy I like (both of which per encounter/daily fails to do while being unfun, imo).


Do I think 4e does some things, yes. I like many racial abilities made feats (something I have been wanted done for a long time). I also like second wind and passive perception scores- and will adapt it to my game. To a degree, I like how characters get a defense score, but dislike the implementation. However, it introduced so much more that I don't like as a DM or player. Among the things that I don't like:

- per encounter/daily powers and combat abilities.
- paladin divine challenge
- marking in general
- the classes. I don't want to play any of them under the new rules.
- condensed skills
- how daily items work
- paragon paths and epic destinies. Granted, I generally dislike PrCs and often prefer the use racial or cultural class variants (or on occassion a new class like Green Ronin's Shaman or Witch), but at least PrCs are intended to be completely optional.
- the healing system
- I still wouldn't want to play a high level game.
- exception based NPC and Monster design. I agree that keeping track of every skill point and feat can be a pain in 3x (honestly, I never do it). However, I think the designers went way too far. Some monsters have abilities that players should be able to do, but can't by the rules until the combat supplement comes out. Some monsters with similar abilities don't work the same(from what I have heard elsewhere).

- Then, we still have the handwaiving of what hit points mean only worse. Hit points used to in part represent physical damage, now they are not at all. Hits are not not necessarily hits and misses still do damage from fatigue/morale loss, but hp loss does not cause any fatigue or exhaustion (which would have made the inclusion of Second Wind something cool) and a certain humanoid that can impale a pc and drag them around the battlefield.

Imo, a better game than 4e could have been designed from what was out there already. All or most of the things, you might consider cool about 4e. I don't. It is just more stuff that will detract from my enjoyment of the game and , since most of them will come up routinely, I 'd rather not have to deal with.

Except 3.x will still have broken multiclassing rules, out of balance level progression, boring magic items with the christmas tree effect, and loads of frustrating work for the DM with NPC and monster design and balancing of CRs. The other issues with 3.x are the numerous problems in combat with save or die, the 5' step and combat moves like grapple and trip. 4e fixes all of these things.

As for the dislikes of second wind, healing surges, unified attack rules for each classes powers, encounter and daily resource management, monster abilities and paragon paths/ epic destinies they do the following:

1. Healing surges make combat more gritty and intense. I didn't notice this until the 3rd session of D&D 4e, but they flat out do. They add a awesome level to the combat.

2. Unified attacks make learning the game and playing easy. Keep in mind that martial attacks use AC for their difficulty, Arcane effects tend to target Reflex, Will or Fortitude based on how the spell works. The attack rolls take the class's level bonus, the ability score relvent to the attack and any class bonuses or feat bonuses in to account. This change is awesome and makes more sense than 3.5 where a spell just hits and then the save is made to stop it. Here, the attack goes against the "save" and then gets through or not. Just because the classes have the same basic rules doesn't mean they feel or play the same at all.

3. Encounter and Daily resources are awesome. They require strategy to use, they remove unnesessary "realism" of durations (which honestly doesn't feel very fantasy like) and when players don't get rests they become even more intense to manage. 4e has resource management just as 3.x has, but it is easier to manage.

4. The multi classing and feats in 4e are desiogned to make up for the prestige classes in 3.x. Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies are intended to be something else entirely. They represent the supernatural ascension of the character instead and eventually lead to immortality and high level play. If you want to keep your character mortal, you take mutli class features in place of those offered by paragon and epic features.

5. The monsters having their own rules make them feel, well...like monsters. They are mysterious and dangerous feeling. Even the kobolds (damn their shifty).

I've played the game since the beginning for over 25+ years. I love every edition of D&D. I loved 3.x, but got very frustrated with how much of a pain building for it as a DM was. 4e has totally solved this. I will never go back, and gladly drink the koolaid.

With the improved combat tactics, group play, more flavorful monsters and magic items, awesome classes, more character customization and streamlined game play without a loss of depth, why would I want to go back.

The difference between what I am saying and what alot of the naysayers are saying is about 70+ hours of game play so far and counting. I am speaking from a place of experience with two groups now at level 4 and 2 respectively and all of our players devouring the new books. We've seen dozens of groups play in our local store and teh consensus is the same. Everytime someone is anti 4e, at some point they play the game enough and it clicks, and bam, they love the new edition.

WOTC did an amazing job. Play it a few times and you may see that.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Whatever merits this thread had when it was originally started (which was before the moratorium), it seems to have become an edition wars thread, so I'm closing it.