Why do levels one and two suck so bad?

[T. Foster]

Based on the archaic references to 'quick-advancement classes' and 'thieves', I would guess that he plays either an older version of the game, or one of the new rulesets designed to be a facsimile thereof.

That's correct. I'm so used to talking about my prefered version(s) of the game (OD&D, 1E AD&D, and Classic D&D (i.e. Basic, Expert, etc.), in descending order of preference) both here and elsewhere that I forget that not everyone (especially here) will understand implicitly that anything rules-specific I mention in any of my posts is referring to one/all of those versions and not to the current version (which, I confess, I've never even played). My bad!

 

[Nifft]

not to the current version (which, I confess, I've never even played). My bad!

Yeah, we're kinda thinking of that current version by default around here.

-- N

 

[fuindordm]

That I somewhat agree with. Multiclassing is IMO the biggest glitchy thing throughout OD&D/AD&D.

Yes, a very clunky balancing mechanism and in IMO the 3E system beats it hands-down (except for when people start to allow 7+ separate class dippings, then I get very nauseous). But in the general case the proposed broken 1E Ftr8/Clr8 was not really permitted.

I3rd edition multiclassing works OK for mundane classes (all three of them), but horribly for any spellcasting class. It works so badly that they have to create prestige classes whose sole purpose is to fix the problem. I don't think it's a balanced option when your most powerful spells lag far behind the rest of the party.

1st edition multiclassed characters were a little too powerful, I agree. But 1e+UA and 2e started to balance multiclassing effectively by restricting important class advantages to single-classed characters (weapon specialization, school specialization).

I'd say that for a 9th level party, any 7/7 multiclassed character (old style, with 7 HD) is quite well balanced.

Ben

 

[S'mon]

At level 1 you just don't have enough hp, especially in 3e where an ogre will kill you with one blow. Thinking about it, a good idea might simply be to award x2 max hit points at 1st level, making PCs tough enough to undertake interesting adventures.

 

[Jorren]

I can think of several reasons, most of which have already been touched upon.

1. Combat is too luck dependent. I prefer more tactical options that the slightly higher levels bring.

2. Been there, done that: I’ve played those levels more than any other. Too many campaigns die early anyway.

3. You can write a more varied background, if you are so inclined. I personally don’t care for the ‘fresh young adventurer’ paradigm. In fact, I’m not interested in a character’s early career much at all. I prefer ‘…and this is where we are now’ to ‘this is how it all started’.

I actually prefer slow advancement. I would be fine with leveling up every 20 sessions even, as long as I don’t have to deal with the monotony of those first few levels.

For the same reasons, I prefer not to run games that start at levels 1-2, either. I've found that starting at 3-4 is really my preference.

 

[JDJblatherings]

At level 1 you just don't have enough hp, especially in 3e where an ogre will kill you with one blow. Thinking about it, a good idea might simply be to award x2 max hit points at 1st level, making PCs tough enough to undertake interesting adventures.

My 1st and 2nd level PCs put the swat down on an ogre rather quickly recently, sure he almost killed two of them but it was them getting healed and not the ogre. They found it a pretty darned interesting encounter without having extra hp. I'd wager it would be a less interesting encounter if they had twice as many HP.

 

[Nifft]

My 1st and 2nd level PCs put the swat down on an ogre rather quickly recently, sure he almost killed two of them but it was them getting healed and not the ogre. They found it a pretty darned interesting encounter without having extra hp. I'd wager it would be a less interesting encounter if they had twice as many HP.

2nd level characters can in fact have twice as many HP as 1st level characters, which the post you quote is discussing.

An ogre's expected damage is 16 hp, which is more than most 1st level characters have.

Cheers, -- N

 

[JDJblatherings]

2nd level characters can in fact have twice as many HP as 1st level characters, which the post you quote is discussing.

An ogre's expected damage is 16 hp, which is more than most 1st level characters have.

Cheers, -- N

The highest HP anyone in the party had at the time was 12, which is why it almost killed 2 of them.

 

[Nifft]

The highest HP anyone in the party had at the time was 12, which is why it almost killed 2 of them.

It rolled quite poorly, then.

They got lucky.

-- N

 

[Delta]

I3rd edition multiclassing works OK for mundane classes (all three of them), but horribly for any spellcasting class.

I wouldn't say "horribly", just "possibly non-optimal". I do have a lot of Ftr1/WizX characters (like, practically every converted drow NPC) in my games.