Why do RPGs have rules?

[pemerton]

Does it? Where is the lack of detail in combat in something like Dungeon World?

I'd ask the same rhetorical question about Prince Valiant. Our combats in Prince Valiant are pretty colourful and vivid.

 

[Lanefan]

Yeah, the problem with such play IMHO is that dumping responsibility for driving play onto the players, but then not giving them anything to build that on, and keeping all the fiction as a secret GM resource, is simply "The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast." You cannot be a protagonist in a story where you have no control over the fiction! Even if you can set out in any map direction (or equivalents) that doesn't help as whatever you find is simply random to the player, it isn't associated with any agenda or character-originating need/want. You want revenge on the orcs for the murder of your family, but all you run into are goblins...

If you just go off in a random direction then of course what you're gonna find there is probably random.

But if you want revenge on the orcs that murdered your family, that means those orcs are an established thing in the setting and thus they're out there somewhere; and if they're out there then with enough info-gathering and investigation you can find them. (unless the GM's being a total asshat; but let's assume good faith for now, and continue)

And sure, that process might run you into some random bands of goblins along the way, plus all sorts of other interruptions and distractions you have to deal with before resuming Plan A. What of it? Not every path to a goal is going to be a straight unobstructed line...

 

[Lanefan]

Does it? Where is the lack of detail in combat in something like Dungeon World? I don't find the combats to be any less detailed or granular than the ones which happen in 5e, for example. Neither game employs a formal 'battle map' and rely on 'ToTM' style combat. Yet DW lacks any formal combat rules whatsoever!

I assume 5e play to include at least a map and minis. I can't imagine (pun intended) trying to play 5e - or any form of D&D - in full TotM mode. Too many arguments.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'd ask the same rhetorical question about Prince Valiant. Our combats in Prince Valiant are pretty colourful and vivid.

I guess the counterargument MIGHT be that these are not entirely 'lite' games, DW weighs in at 400 pages, all told. However the part of it I would call 'core rules' is pretty small, at 130 pages roughly, including all the advice on building fronts, etc. Also 'page' is a bit of a misnomer, as the PDF layout of DW puts MUCH less info on a page than, say, 5e does. Still I'd agree that DW is not near the extreme end of light weight.

 

[pemerton]

I guess the counterargument MIGHT be that these are not entirely 'lite' games, DW weighs in at 400 pages, all told. However the part of it I would call 'core rules' is pretty small, at 130 pages roughly, including all the advice on building fronts, etc. Also 'page' is a bit of a misnomer, as the PDF layout of DW puts MUCH less info on a page than, say, 5e does. Still I'd agree that DW is not near the extreme end of light weight.

OK, Prince Valiant is quite a bit lighter than that. The basic game is 24 pages, and that is not particularly tightly written - it's a teaching text, not a reference text. My summary, which includes the Advanced occupation and skill lists but has no examples, gets it down to 18 pages.

 

[Micah Sweet]

'dressed up'??? Its a comment in a forum on RPGs, not a PhD thesis or even a blog post. With long experience, I've found it to be true. You are free to disagree, as always.

You didn't present your opinion as such, so I felt I should question it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

If you just go off in a random direction then of course what you're gonna find there is probably random.

But if you want revenge on the orcs that murdered your family, that means those orcs are an established thing in the setting and thus they're out there somewhere; and if they're out there then with enough info-gathering and investigation you can find them. (unless the GM's being a total asshat; but let's assume good faith for now, and continue)

Maybe, but I admit this is a pretty shallow example. How about "Brilliant, but obsessed with the idea that I cannot live up to my father's expectations, I will do anything to unite the Yu states under my rule, and crush the orc tribes forever." You gonna condone that? Because, from my experience 99.9% of all 'simulationist' GMs are going to instantly tell me that its unrealistic to expect your character to do great things, that changing the world is basically impossible, and they don't seem to want to upend their lore. That sort of problem is exactly what I'm talking about. And that's still really a largely externally directed sort of dramatic need, the real nut of things is going to be when I have to marry off my favorite sister to that horrible guy that I must ally with to succeed. Can you really handle that?

And sure, that process might run you into some random bands of goblins along the way, plus all sorts of other interruptions and distractions you have to deal with before resuming Plan A. What of it? Not every path to a goal is going to be a straight unobstructed line...

Right, but again IME, what happens is endless such diversions and whatnot, all in the name of 'realism' in a pretend world. Obviously at some level there will be things that don't relate to your PCs and their stories, but its a question of focus.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I assume 5e play to include at least a map and minis. I can't imagine (pun intended) trying to play 5e - or any form of D&D - in full TotM mode. Too many arguments.

And yet the game itself makes nothing but passing note of the possibility, and doesn't contain any rules related to doing so (while mysteriously describing AoEs in precise geometric terms, which completely mystifies me). There's nothing of detail lost in DW's depictions of combat. Played both games, stating it as a fact, they both are designed to be played as purely narrative combat with only a general idea of the geography of the field of battle being provided.

And of the three 5e campaigns I've played in to at least 10th level, 2 of them never used any maps at all. The third was played online using roll20, and we did have maps for, I would say, the majority of the fights in that game. So clearly 5e is perfectly capable of being, and is frequently, maybe normally, played without formal battle maps.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Maybe, but I admit this is a pretty shallow example. How about "Brilliant, but obsessed with the idea that I cannot live up to my father's expectations, I will do anything to unite the Yu states under my rule, and crush the orc tribes forever." You gonna condone that? Because, from my experience 99.9% of all 'simulationist' GMs are going to instantly tell me that its unrealistic to expect your character to do great things, that changing the world is basically impossible, and they don't seem to want to upend their lore. That sort of problem is exactly what I'm talking about. And that's still really a largely externally directed sort of dramatic need, the real nut of things is going to be when I have to marry off my favorite sister to that horrible guy that I must ally with to succeed. Can you really handle that?

Right, but again IME, what happens is endless such diversions and whatnot, all in the name of 'realism' in a pretend world. Obviously at some level there will be things that don't relate to your PCs and their stories, but its a question of focus.

Any GM who tells their player the kind of stuff you're saying has, in my opinion, failed as a simulationist. Of course the PCs can change the world, through their actions. That's the point. Big changes require more effort and more time, of course. Just like in real life.

 

[pemerton]

IME, what happens is endless such diversions and whatnot, all in the name of 'realism' in a pretend world. Obviously at some level there will be things that don't relate to your PCs and their stories, but its a question of focus.

Why is it more realistic to meet the goblins, rather than the Orcs the PC hopes to confront?

"Realistic" here just means "What the GM decided would be part of their world."