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Why does 5E SUCK?
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 6637604" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>Completely agreed here.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm about as far as you'll get from a 5e apologist, but...</p><p></p><p>1) Isn't multiclassing generally agreed to be a (*very*) weak option unless you're very, very sure about what you're doing? It delays most of the best benefits in the game (spell levels, extra attacks, ASI/feat choices), and doesn't give you things like armor proficiencies.</p><p></p><p>2) How do you figure, on the armor? If you're going Light armor, you want a Dex of at least 14, and preferably 16. That's +2 or +3 to your armor class. At level 1, the best heavy armor you can afford with starting cash is Chain Mail, which is AC 16. Studded Leather is just as easily acquired, and has AC 12+Dex, giving AC 14 or 15. You're (at worst) two points of AC behind--and, in the end, you'll have 12+5 = 17 vs. the flat 18 from heavy armor, which is crazy expensive if you need to buy it, and supposedly very rare to find in treasure (and, IIRC, it needs to be refitted which costs money too?)</p><p></p><p>I mean, yes, heavy armor's thing is that it's slightly better protection. It also comes with detriments (slowed, disadvantage on stealth, weight) and requirements (high Str rather than high Dex). It's not like it's just straight-up +1 AC for no loss--and it's not like Dexterity isn't <em>still</em> the best, or AT LEAST second-best, stat in the game by a <em>long</em> margin, especially given how kind 5e is to light-weapon users.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>On the weak side, almost certainly Fighter (especially Champion) and Warlock (especially Pact of the Blade). Both of them are sensitive to campaign pacing and are at risk of a sort of "reverse" five minute workday problem because of the in-game length of time for a short rest. The Fighter, as usual, got seriously shortchanged for noncombat stuff; Battlemasters get a tool proficiency (because Know Your Enemy is about combat stats, nothing more) and Champions can jump a piddly bit further and get a +1 or +2 (for most of the game) to stuff they aren't proficient in (with most of the benefit being, again, to combat). The Warlock doesn't present itself very well, as the whole "quick route to power" thing often makes people (including myself) think that it should be more flashy and blastery, when it's <em>really</em> a master of very subtle magic/espionage and must treat its spell slots as a precious commodity, hoarded until the perfect moment. The Blade Warlock pretty much straight-up <em>requires</em> optimization to do its job, and leaves many things that probably should've been automatic as optional side-features.</p><p></p><p>I've also heard rumblings that Barbarians and Rangers (especially Beastmaster Rangers) are relatively lackluster, but nothing quite as clear, common, or repeated as Fighter and Warlock. I've also heard some more minor complaints about Rogues and Monks, but I cannot remember the details so that might have just been about a couple of lame features rather than more "global" weaknesses of the classes.</p><p></p><p>On the powerful side, Paladin and Druid are the major standouts. Paladins have a robust, solid baseline, <em>and</em> a bunch of really nice class-specific spells, <em>and</em> an aura which "breaks" (or, IMO, <em>fixes</em>) saving throws substantially, since it gives almost everyone (and always the paladin) effective proficiency in ALL saves...which STACKS with any proficiency the recipient might already have. I, personally, find the design painfully <em>bland</em> and far too copy-pasted from the Cleric, but I cannot deny the potency. And then you have Druids, who still have a nice and varied spell list, and Moon Druids particularly, with their beast forms. I agree that Moon Druids' power is "chunky" (or perhaps "digital" is a better word), but as I understand it they remain above parity for the majority of levels that most campaigns see (from 2 to ~9 or so, when most campaigns don't reach teen levels).</p><p></p><p>Of course, there's also the simple fact of "magic >> fighting" coming back in 5e; it's not exactly hard to be less "caster-supremacist" than 3e, and you can still have magic totally outclass other options while having magic toned down and non-magic toned up when compared to pre-4e versions.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 6637604, member: 6790260"] Completely agreed here. I'm about as far as you'll get from a 5e apologist, but... 1) Isn't multiclassing generally agreed to be a (*very*) weak option unless you're very, very sure about what you're doing? It delays most of the best benefits in the game (spell levels, extra attacks, ASI/feat choices), and doesn't give you things like armor proficiencies. 2) How do you figure, on the armor? If you're going Light armor, you want a Dex of at least 14, and preferably 16. That's +2 or +3 to your armor class. At level 1, the best heavy armor you can afford with starting cash is Chain Mail, which is AC 16. Studded Leather is just as easily acquired, and has AC 12+Dex, giving AC 14 or 15. You're (at worst) two points of AC behind--and, in the end, you'll have 12+5 = 17 vs. the flat 18 from heavy armor, which is crazy expensive if you need to buy it, and supposedly very rare to find in treasure (and, IIRC, it needs to be refitted which costs money too?) I mean, yes, heavy armor's thing is that it's slightly better protection. It also comes with detriments (slowed, disadvantage on stealth, weight) and requirements (high Str rather than high Dex). It's not like it's just straight-up +1 AC for no loss--and it's not like Dexterity isn't [I]still[/I] the best, or AT LEAST second-best, stat in the game by a [I]long[/I] margin, especially given how kind 5e is to light-weapon users. On the weak side, almost certainly Fighter (especially Champion) and Warlock (especially Pact of the Blade). Both of them are sensitive to campaign pacing and are at risk of a sort of "reverse" five minute workday problem because of the in-game length of time for a short rest. The Fighter, as usual, got seriously shortchanged for noncombat stuff; Battlemasters get a tool proficiency (because Know Your Enemy is about combat stats, nothing more) and Champions can jump a piddly bit further and get a +1 or +2 (for most of the game) to stuff they aren't proficient in (with most of the benefit being, again, to combat). The Warlock doesn't present itself very well, as the whole "quick route to power" thing often makes people (including myself) think that it should be more flashy and blastery, when it's [I]really[/I] a master of very subtle magic/espionage and must treat its spell slots as a precious commodity, hoarded until the perfect moment. The Blade Warlock pretty much straight-up [I]requires[/I] optimization to do its job, and leaves many things that probably should've been automatic as optional side-features. I've also heard rumblings that Barbarians and Rangers (especially Beastmaster Rangers) are relatively lackluster, but nothing quite as clear, common, or repeated as Fighter and Warlock. I've also heard some more minor complaints about Rogues and Monks, but I cannot remember the details so that might have just been about a couple of lame features rather than more "global" weaknesses of the classes. On the powerful side, Paladin and Druid are the major standouts. Paladins have a robust, solid baseline, [I]and[/I] a bunch of really nice class-specific spells, [I]and[/I] an aura which "breaks" (or, IMO, [I]fixes[/I]) saving throws substantially, since it gives almost everyone (and always the paladin) effective proficiency in ALL saves...which STACKS with any proficiency the recipient might already have. I, personally, find the design painfully [I]bland[/I] and far too copy-pasted from the Cleric, but I cannot deny the potency. And then you have Druids, who still have a nice and varied spell list, and Moon Druids particularly, with their beast forms. I agree that Moon Druids' power is "chunky" (or perhaps "digital" is a better word), but as I understand it they remain above parity for the majority of levels that most campaigns see (from 2 to ~9 or so, when most campaigns don't reach teen levels). Of course, there's also the simple fact of "magic >> fighting" coming back in 5e; it's not exactly hard to be less "caster-supremacist" than 3e, and you can still have magic totally outclass other options while having magic toned down and non-magic toned up when compared to pre-4e versions. [/QUOTE]
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