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<blockquote data-quote="FormerlyHemlock" data-source="post: 6638607" data-attributes="member: 6787650"><p>1.) Lay on Hands doesn't remove Exhaustion. Too bad or else Paladin/Frenzy Barb would be a much more attractive party.</p><p></p><p>2.) Good point about Oath of Ancients. Plant Growth/Speak with Animals/Commune with Nature does actually add a new dimension of utility to the class. I don't find most of the rest of the list very useful in a non-combat setting; Create Food and Drink, Find Steed, and Zone of Truth are the most useful.</p><p></p><p>3.) If you're considering subclasses and 20th level characters, Eldritch Knight must be considered too: Find Familiar adds a whole new dimension of utility to fighters comparable to the Plant Growth/Speak With Animals Stuff (although Commune with Nature is probably a level above that). Battlemaster evaluation a la "compare the combat stats of enemies to your own" should definitely not be sneered at in a noncombat setting. Who but a battlemaster can safely tell you whether it's safe to throw down with the mafia don's bodyguard or if he'll eat you alive? What are you going to do, risk your life on a <em>guess</em> that you'll be good enough to play nasty? The utility of that ability is highly campaign-dependent and I believe you come from a 4E background, so I'm not surprised you don't value it in your campaigns, but the same thing is true of Commune With Nature and disease resistance.</p><p></p><p>Overall you make a good argument that paladin utility is somewhat wider than fighter utility outside of campaign (primarily the arguments which resonate with me are the Oath of Ancients spells, and disease resistance), and thank you for making that argument explicitly, but they're both still quite limited out of combat compared to either backgrounds or especially to classes like Tome Pact Warlock, Wizard and Druid. I can enumerate the ways in which druids are versatile and fun out of combat (wildshape, Transport Via Plants, ritual Water Breathing, ritual Water Walking, Animal Shapes!, Awaken!, Conjure Elemental + Planar Binding!, Meld Into Stone, Wind Walk, Plane Shift, Wall of Stone, Polymorph--all of these are awesome and most of them are awesome in completely different ways from each other) and it ought to be clear that they're on a completely different level from paladins, so much so that paladins and fighters look pretty much the same. IMHO. It's obviously a matter of taste to some degree, so YMMV.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FormerlyHemlock, post: 6638607, member: 6787650"] 1.) Lay on Hands doesn't remove Exhaustion. Too bad or else Paladin/Frenzy Barb would be a much more attractive party. 2.) Good point about Oath of Ancients. Plant Growth/Speak with Animals/Commune with Nature does actually add a new dimension of utility to the class. I don't find most of the rest of the list very useful in a non-combat setting; Create Food and Drink, Find Steed, and Zone of Truth are the most useful. 3.) If you're considering subclasses and 20th level characters, Eldritch Knight must be considered too: Find Familiar adds a whole new dimension of utility to fighters comparable to the Plant Growth/Speak With Animals Stuff (although Commune with Nature is probably a level above that). Battlemaster evaluation a la "compare the combat stats of enemies to your own" should definitely not be sneered at in a noncombat setting. Who but a battlemaster can safely tell you whether it's safe to throw down with the mafia don's bodyguard or if he'll eat you alive? What are you going to do, risk your life on a [I]guess[/I] that you'll be good enough to play nasty? The utility of that ability is highly campaign-dependent and I believe you come from a 4E background, so I'm not surprised you don't value it in your campaigns, but the same thing is true of Commune With Nature and disease resistance. Overall you make a good argument that paladin utility is somewhat wider than fighter utility outside of campaign (primarily the arguments which resonate with me are the Oath of Ancients spells, and disease resistance), and thank you for making that argument explicitly, but they're both still quite limited out of combat compared to either backgrounds or especially to classes like Tome Pact Warlock, Wizard and Druid. I can enumerate the ways in which druids are versatile and fun out of combat (wildshape, Transport Via Plants, ritual Water Breathing, ritual Water Walking, Animal Shapes!, Awaken!, Conjure Elemental + Planar Binding!, Meld Into Stone, Wind Walk, Plane Shift, Wall of Stone, Polymorph--all of these are awesome and most of them are awesome in completely different ways from each other) and it ought to be clear that they're on a completely different level from paladins, so much so that paladins and fighters look pretty much the same. IMHO. It's obviously a matter of taste to some degree, so YMMV. [/QUOTE]
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