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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 6640342" data-attributes="member: 6790260">How much does the Paladin need to change its fundamental archetype in order to cast spells?How much does the Fighter need to change its fundamental archetype in order to cast spells?Aping a slice of the core mechanic of an entirely different class is fundamentally different from *always* having a particular mechanic. I'd also like to add that I don't like spellcasting Paladins, and prefer that their non-spell, but still supernatural, resources be up to the task of making them unique and exciting in every aspect of play.(1) Feats are not a core part of the game. There are lots, and lots, of DMs on this very forum who talk about how glad they are that they can kick feats to the curb. Thus, I never, EVER assume that feats are part of the game.(2) Same logic I applied to ASIs applies to feats. That is, yes, you get two more as a Fighter. You'll be one ahead at level 6, and only reach your second "extra" at level 13. Thus, *most* Fighters won't actually see that second extra ASI/feat slot (per WotC's own admission that most campaigns don't make it to the teens).(3) Let's be real here: with the Fighter's dependence on stats for combat, unless someone is massively dedicated to their non-combat stuff, the first two ASIs are going to boost Strength or Dex to 20 (because +5 attack, and damage on every hit, is amazing when you roll lots of attacks...which Fighters do). So most Fighters, that get to choose feats at all (and don't play variant Humans) probably won't see this benefit until pretty late in their careers--given that, if you pick up a feat at level 6, you'll only have it for ~60% of a typical character's lifespan (presuming most campaigns stop in the 11-12 range, which is slightly beyond what Mearls pegged it at, when explaining the weirdness of the XP to gain level 11).(4) Feats are fixed. Every caster class--even those with limited spells known--has mechanics for getting around that, to one degree or another (the Wizard, of course, is a standout for having no hard limit to spells known, if they can find scrolls.) Even the Warlock, with the most limited of limited spells, has invocations as a unique (and very important) class feature. The flexibility applies to rituals, too, since those can be cast repeatedly (with time being the only RAW constraint). Feats essentially never get better with time, whereas many spells and rituals do, even if they are fixed.It's not just "for some reason." There's a very good reason to treat "You can get bonus feats!" with a chary eye.I never said the Fighter wasn't better off, when compared to 3e. Not once. I even explicitly called out that 5e has one important improvement over 4e, in that Fighters are no longer inexplicably one skill short of everyone else. But, again, the "better does not mean good" argument applies to Fighters just as much as it applies to full-casters. Compared to 3e, the Fighter is better--a lot better, even. Compared to 4e, the Fighter is better in certain ways and worse in others (feats being both hard to justify and much, much rarer in 5e doesn't help at all--everyone gets 5 feats normally over 20 levels instead of 12 in 4e--and another 6 before 4e wraps up).But, yet again, the Fighter brings essentially nothing to the table of its own mechanics, whenever you're not stabbing things in the face. It either has to steal mechanics from another class (Eldritch Knight), buy "generic" utility things at the expense of expected progression (burning ASIs for feats, at least prior to level 8), or...nothing, because there's nothing else you can do. Everyone else gets hard-coded utility stuff that isn't dependent on the DM to even be possible (not even getting to whether DM perspective makes it worthwhile or worthless). Even the Barbarian, who really scrapes the bottom of the barrel for utility mechanics, has substantial stuff to it. Only the Fighter has to opt into having stuff to do out of combat. I find that awful. I don't even especially LIKE playing Fighters (I'm a Paladin and Sorcerer fan), and I *still* think that's major BS.</blockquote>

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