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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tyrlaan" data-source="post: 6641956" data-attributes="member: 20998">Oh beware the path of the social pillar; it gets a lot uglier a lot faster across many of the classes if you look only for evidence of the social pillar. To be honest, I didn't mention feats (or skills) because I thought we were past this part of the debate. Feats don't belong on this list because everyone can get them (or not if they aren't used in your game) and the fighter gets only 2 more of them over the course of all 20 levels. If you generously decide an average campaign ends by 12th level, they have 1 more feat than other classes. I get the considerable power of feats in 5e, but I wouldn't be comfortable hanging my hat on one feat as the defining characteristic of non-combat pillar support for the class. That's kind of like putting a single leaf of lettuce on a steak and saying it's a salad.And if you aren't using feats, the alternate argument that +2 to some skills (or if we're talking about realistic campaign length, maybe +1) through ASI choices covers the non-combat pillars is similarly weak. Basically, here's the argument that feats or ASIs cover the non-combat pillars for the fighter... "Fighter, do everything you can to excel at fighting first, and when you get tired of that, we have other stuff out there. Of course by the time you check them out your fellow players will have been playing in those sandboxes for a lot of time already. Oh, and we built them some cool things they already have and only they can get, but hey why don't you dig around in this toychest and pick up something anyone else could take out of the toychest too."Now, some players may not follow this path, and look for non-combat stuff first, but I think we can agree it's the minority. There is combat in the game after all and there is nothing wrong with seeking combat features as a priority. Unfortunately other classes deliver non-combat pillar support into the hands of the player, while the fighter has to go forage for it.You are right about the rogue though, it's spellcasting should be discounted as much as the fighters. Note, however, that taking it away still leaves it in a noticeably better place than fighter.</blockquote>

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