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<blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 6643525" data-attributes="member: 48965">Yes I do realize that... I was stating that it doesn't have to be a proficiency check... thus why it works with initiative... it works for checks that wouldn't normally get proficiency bonuses at all... as well as those that normally would... if you're not proficient in them.How does a +6 vs. a +8 mean that the character's are just as capable... DC's go from 5 to 30... both are just as capable of hitting a DC that is under their bonus but beyond that a +8 is more capable than a +6 of succeeding on higher DC's... Now looking at a discrepancy in classes between one who prioritizes an attribute vs. one who doesn't... 8 vs. 20... there is a difference of +5 in ability, that's a whole difference of difficulty class one can hit with a roll and one can't... it also means one can fail at difficulties another can't... how is that basically just as capable?&nbsp; See this is where I see a problem with the spell argument... there are going to be exploration difficulties where the fighter can auto succeed but the wizard can still fail... the wizard has to decide whether to burn a spell or risk failure... while the fighter uses an unlimited resource that auto-succeeds or gives him a much greater chance of succeeding.&nbsp; Maybe I'm not understanding what &quot;basically just as capable means&quot; but if you want feel free to expound. The fighter doesn't just have a high strength... this whole thread has listed out multiple strengths/abilities of a fighter in the non-combat pillar and your rebuttal seems to be... but all he has is strength.&nbsp; The fighter probably has higher physical attributes on average than any other class... he has bonus feats that can be used in the non-combat space, he has abilities like action surge, remarkable athlete, Indomitable and Second Wind, he has a subclass with access to spells...</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Imaro, post: 6643525, member: 48965"] Yes I do realize that... I was stating that it doesn't have to be a proficiency check... thus why it works with initiative... it works for checks that wouldn't normally get proficiency bonuses at all... as well as those that normally would... if you're not proficient in them. How does a +6 vs. a +8 mean that the character's are just as capable... DC's go from 5 to 30... both are just as capable of hitting a DC that is under their bonus but beyond that a +8 is more capable than a +6 of succeeding on higher DC's... Now looking at a discrepancy in classes between one who prioritizes an attribute vs. one who doesn't... 8 vs. 20... there is a difference of +5 in ability, that's a whole difference of difficulty class one can hit with a roll and one can't... it also means one can fail at difficulties another can't... how is that basically just as capable? See this is where I see a problem with the spell argument... there are going to be exploration difficulties where the fighter can auto succeed but the wizard can still fail... the wizard has to decide whether to burn a spell or risk failure... while the fighter uses an unlimited resource that auto-succeeds or gives him a much greater chance of succeeding. Maybe I'm not understanding what "basically just as capable means" but if you want feel free to expound. The fighter doesn't just have a high strength... this whole thread has listed out multiple strengths/abilities of a fighter in the non-combat pillar and your rebuttal seems to be... but all he has is strength. The fighter probably has higher physical attributes on average than any other class... he has bonus feats that can be used in the non-combat space, he has abilities like action surge, remarkable athlete, Indomitable and Second Wind, he has a subclass with access to spells... [/QUOTE]

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