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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 6643873" data-attributes="member: 48965">I'm also seeing a disconnect here... because now, once again the claim that the fighter cannot contribute to non-combat at all without optional resources, etc arises... when this is patently false.  skills from class and background alone allow him to contribute.  As to your second point no one is saying the wizard cannot have non-combat spells... what's being said is that he doesn't have the versatility in spell selection where every exploration problem can be approached like that.  As an example, how does Jump or Spider Climb help a wizard swim? If he has Jump... hows does that help him climb?  If he has Spider Climb... how does he jump.  If he has Spider Climb, Levitate and Jump how does that help him avoid or resist a room that fills with poisonous gas?   There's a trade off of versatility and flexibility when acquiring a limited number of spells and depending on them to carry you through the exploration pillar, especially when your physical abilities are lacking... but it's usually ignored in these discussions.Boy are you telling me...and yes we've discussed cantrips... guidance is a cantrip, but it takes up your concentration slot (can't use other concentration spells while maintaining it & damage/extreme conditions can cause you to loose it)... takes an action to cast (can't be cast in a surprise or unexpected situation), requires touch to cast on someone (so again you need to be near enough to cast it on whoever needs it)  and it literally gives a +2/2.5 bonus on average... That's basically the bonus of a trained proficiency at low levels...  I'd rather just have the trained proficiency than have to jump through those hoops and take up a casters concentration for a +2.5 bonus to a roll...   Seriously... Jump allows one to contribute in a meaningful way to exploration but being trained in Athletics with a high Strength doesn't.  I'm not even understanding the criteria for meaningful or effective anymore.  FInd Familiar and Disguise self I'll give you... but I'm also not understanding how Tenser's allows one to contribute to non-combat pillars effectively either... carrying stuff is now meaningfully contributing to non-combat?Prestidigitation and Mage Hand... incredible amount of utility?  I am seeing quite the double standard if we're claiming Prestidigitation and Mage Hand give an "incredible" amount of utility... Mage hand is cool in niche situations where I can't reach something... but I'm not seeing these examples as affording the type of contribution, flexibilty and versatility a fighter with a high athletics brings to the table...  I don't think anyone is doing this.  What people are saying is that spells usually are kind of niche, one specific situation type of things and it's very unlikely, without a significant nerf in combat capability, that a caster is going to be able to cover the wide area of the other pillars that the fighter's high physical abilities and proficiency in athletics will... and this i before we even get into the bonus feats and class abilities...  What we've said is if a fighter wants to be more focused on the exploration pillar or social pillar he has the resources to do so.</blockquote>

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