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<blockquote data-quote="Ashkelon" data-source="post: 6644263" data-attributes="member: 6774887">Well, here let me clarify for you.Unique means having unique capabilities. Remarkable athlete is not unique. Anyone can already make untrained skill checks. Getting a small bonus to untrained STR/DEX/CON checks is therefor not unique.Indomitable (when used outside of combat) only serves to lessen the severity of failure. Well, lots of things do that. Lay on hands healing, barbarian danger sense, paladin auras, magical healing, rogue's uncanny dodge, and much more. Therefor it is not a capability unique to the fighter.Action surge is unique, but has very limited use outside combat.Bonus feats aren't unique, as anyone can learn the same feats as a fighter anyway.As for competent, I don't think people are saying fighters aren't competent (we'll nobody but you guys and your strawman argument). People are saying that fighters aren't any more competent than any other random PC. Any PC can take a high strength and proficiency in athletics. Hell, I have seen a wizard with an 18 Strength and training in athletics before. In that situation, the wizard was just as competent as the fighter in accomplishing STR related exploration tasks.What we are asking for is for fighter's to have unique ways to meaningfully contribute to exploration challenges. We want there to be non-combat situations where the party is actually glad to have a fighter, as opposed to a bard with expertise in STR, a 14 STR cleric, a moon druid, or any random PC with a decent STR and proficiency in athletics.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ashkelon, post: 6644263, member: 6774887"] Well, here let me clarify for you. Unique means having unique capabilities. Remarkable athlete is not unique. Anyone can already make untrained skill checks. Getting a small bonus to untrained STR/DEX/CON checks is therefor not unique. Indomitable (when used outside of combat) only serves to lessen the severity of failure. Well, lots of things do that. Lay on hands healing, barbarian danger sense, paladin auras, magical healing, rogue's uncanny dodge, and much more. Therefor it is not a capability unique to the fighter. Action surge is unique, but has very limited use outside combat. Bonus feats aren't unique, as anyone can learn the same feats as a fighter anyway. As for competent, I don't think people are saying fighters aren't competent (we'll nobody but you guys and your strawman argument). People are saying that fighters aren't any more competent than any other random PC. Any PC can take a high strength and proficiency in athletics. Hell, I have seen a wizard with an 18 Strength and training in athletics before. In that situation, the wizard was just as competent as the fighter in accomplishing STR related exploration tasks. What we are asking for is for fighter's to have unique ways to meaningfully contribute to exploration challenges. We want there to be non-combat situations where the party is actually glad to have a fighter, as opposed to a bard with expertise in STR, a 14 STR cleric, a moon druid, or any random PC with a decent STR and proficiency in athletics. [/QUOTE]

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