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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6648914" data-attributes="member: 82106">3.x/PF is kind of a two-edged sword though. The classes are HIGHLY asymmetric in what they can do. Without trying to belabor the shortcomings of that system too much its really true that there are drastically different power level 'tiers' of classes, with tier one classes basically playing an entirely different game from tier 2. At low levels they kinda mix OK, but the system really has a LOT of issues, the table has to be in considerable agreement about what sort of game they're playing or it can break down pretty hard.4e OTOH isn't as limited as you like to make out. I referenced my 'utility wizard' in an earlier post. The character could do a LOT. In fact he was in some respects MORE powerful than my old AD&D wizard at game-equivalent levels. I consider 2e level 7 and 4e level 11 to be about on par. The level 7 2e wizard has 4th level spells, the 11th level 4e wizard has a PP and the various bumps that come with the transition to Paragon Tier. Both are now pretty much playing in the 'big leagues'. These are sweet spots for each system too. At this level my utility wizard has LOTS of ritual magic, which is slow to cast but almost unlimited use (a few rituals are rather expensive to cast, but most of them have fairly negligible costs by this level). He's got a pretty good array of powers, and at least 3 utility powers (and with his spell book etc he actually had IIRC 4 utility powers/day, 12 to choose from, and the ability to do one on-the-fly swap). My recollection of level 7 for my 2e wizard was he had a pretty decent spell book (due to looting of dead companions books mostly), and several quite nasty magic items (he could fly due to getting a GW mutation, had a cloak of displacement, and some sort of ring and a staff, plus some way to cast some extra fireballs if he really needed it, plus several scrolls he'd made or found). Still, he could only cast 4/3/2/1 spells and there aren't any such thing as rituals in 2e. The 4e wizard also had some items, giving him a couple more powers he could use, a familiar, an MC into warlord so he could learn practices, several of those, and a whole bunch of alchemical items and potions he'd made. These included nice things like smoke generating, resistance potions, and some stuff that allowed adding damage types or getting a one-attack hit or damage bonus, etc. Both wizards could fly (one innately, the other by casting a modest cost ritual with a 50/50 chance or so to get flying steeds for the whole party). They could both do invisibility (requiring concentration in 4e, but otherwise pretty similar). They could each do various other things, cast a Wall spell of some sort, some kind of nasty AoE, etc. I'm not sure what a 3e version of my AD&D wizard would get, but as I understand it probably the ability to cast in the middle of combat (note that 4e wizards don't have any specific limitations on when or where they can cast, nor do 4e spells require a casting time, though they may be subject to an OA potentially). So maybe the 3e version would be more powerful, probably so if it was tweaked or depending on how the table played. The 4e wizard certainly is a better combat caster than the 2e wizard, but each spell is usually weaker. OTOH he can cast at least some of them all day, eventually the 2e or 3e wizard is reduced to throwing knives or something equally pathetic.</blockquote>

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