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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Erechel" data-source="post: 6650250" data-attributes="member: 6784868">I understand what you are saying, Pemerton. But they actually are reliable. As I've pointed out, RA covers a whole specter of possible Skill Checks. Yes, the fighter isn't the very best at any given area (with the possible exeption of Athletics covered area, and in situations where an Action Surge and Indomitable actually give an edge; EG scaping a whirling pool, saving another drowning character thanks to their strenght, interpose in the blast of a trap, throwing a rope or keeping his hand to aid another character to climb off a difficult situation are life-or-death examples), but where as physicall challenges, he is really reliable. He usually have higher stats or more feats (probably both, as feats like Athlete or Heavy Armor Master, and even Tavern Brawler pump a +1 to a physical stat above giving their own benefit). As for Reliable Talent (the only dice manipulation ability the Rogue has), it is only appliable on skills he already has proficiency on, and comes late at his adventurer life. And is arguably inferior to a feat as Lucky that the Fighter can achieve at 6 level (or 4th, or 1st, if human). The strength of the Rogue class (again, the Skill Monkey) is due to Expertise and superior number of skills, not reliable talent (which only prevents from a failure on an Average task).That said, of course the thief is better at certain tasks than the fighter (I have to see yet an Athletics Expertise rogue; that could be an interesting build). But the fighter, without having to use spells, is better than anyone else. And the champion is better in a lot of situations where no skill proficiency apply. A bit better, or a lot better, depending on his level, stats and such. With spells (again, the cleric/ bard better pump him rather than themselves; the EK can pump himself rather easily), he is great, even if not exceptional. He is not the baseliner, he really is above average. Agreed, he is not a flawless champion, but in most situations he is going to be useful. And it's silly to compare it with exceptional builds as a 18 strenght wizards (which sucks as magician or have tremendous luck with initial dice). A Paladin may be on par at some level, but he has to devote at least his second score to Charisma, and at 6th level the Fighter gains a real pump up. The fighter is a generalist, as I said earlier. The specialist is the thief or the bard, and it goes to a limited amount of tasks. Also, you haven't denied that the shadow monk, with his ki, is better at acrobatics and stealthy infiltration than the rogue.</blockquote>

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