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Why does 5E SUCK?
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6650733" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Yes, but this isn't what I'm talking about. The game only envisages one range of difficulty, measured against a level 1 PC (apparently from what I can see). Obviously you can set any numbers you want, in theory, but how does that change the argument?</p><p></p><p></p><p>You are clearly missing my point. We know that in 4e a level 10 medium DC is 18, but what FICTIONALLY does that represent? There are SOME conventions, an 18 represents a running broad jump of about 15' IIRC, a 20 will let you break through a barred wooden door, and a 26 is required to break through a wooden wall. So we DO have a bit of a baseline, what the authors envisaged, but we have a lot of freedom. The most capable 'ordinary human' might have a +4 Ability Bonus, and maybe a Skill Bonus of +5 if the feat uses a skill they are trained in (on the assumption that ordinary people even get +5 trained bonuses, 4e doesn't apply character rules to NPCS). So, a strong non-leveled NPC might achieve checks up to say 29 at the most extreme. He might break a barred door, or crash through the wall of a village house, or jump over a 20' wide chasm, in the default setting.</p><p></p><p>So, assuming we don't want to radically amplify the abilities of low level non-adventurers, we'd probably rescale things in a bit of an exponential fashion. a check result of 30 is the top of realistic human potential, a 35 is quite a bit beyond it, a 40 might be 'less than godlike' and a 45 might represent moving a mountain. This is quite a bit beyond what the default fiction envisages, but because there's a large scale difference in the numbers that heroic/paragon/epic PCs can achieve its quite possible to radically rescale the fiction attached to the different numbers. You simply cannot do that in 5e. If the hardest attainable DCs are super fantastic things, then low level characters will be achieve them. Not often, but if even one guard captain can say throw a giant, its going to be a pretty odd setting...</p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, you can create a different skill system in essence. But as with my example above, I can make 4e's fiction much grittier without much effort. I can simply set the DC for cracking through a barred door at 35, not 18. I can simply subtract 10' from broad jump results, so that even a 35 only gets you just barely beyond olympic record distance (or make up some other formula). In general most fiction doesn't even have ANY mechanical tie to a specific DC in 4e, so I can just set the DCs such that even 20th level 4e PCs can only accomplish modestly astounding things, not stupidly ridiculous things. </p><p> </p><p></p><p>No, I don't understand. The critical problem here in the 5e setup is the small growth in bonuses means you can't differentiate between heroes and ordinary people in terms of abilities and skills. The game simply cannot do it. No amount of picking different DCs will change that unless you start picking them purely on fictional grounds and ignoring mechanics. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>D&D is a level-based game, that's the whole core conceit is that as you level up you scale up in power. I don't think this is something I invented for rhetorical reasons. Its so core to D&D that I would dare say that a game where you use some other scaling system ISN'T D&D AT ALL. In a much more fundamental way than people said that about 4e! I don't think its 5e either TBH. I mean I can do anything I want if I just homebrew my own system. Heck, I was already lambasted once on this thread today for even making a contrast with my own homebrew. I think you need stronger arguments.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6650733, member: 82106"] Yes, but this isn't what I'm talking about. The game only envisages one range of difficulty, measured against a level 1 PC (apparently from what I can see). Obviously you can set any numbers you want, in theory, but how does that change the argument? You are clearly missing my point. We know that in 4e a level 10 medium DC is 18, but what FICTIONALLY does that represent? There are SOME conventions, an 18 represents a running broad jump of about 15' IIRC, a 20 will let you break through a barred wooden door, and a 26 is required to break through a wooden wall. So we DO have a bit of a baseline, what the authors envisaged, but we have a lot of freedom. The most capable 'ordinary human' might have a +4 Ability Bonus, and maybe a Skill Bonus of +5 if the feat uses a skill they are trained in (on the assumption that ordinary people even get +5 trained bonuses, 4e doesn't apply character rules to NPCS). So, a strong non-leveled NPC might achieve checks up to say 29 at the most extreme. He might break a barred door, or crash through the wall of a village house, or jump over a 20' wide chasm, in the default setting. So, assuming we don't want to radically amplify the abilities of low level non-adventurers, we'd probably rescale things in a bit of an exponential fashion. a check result of 30 is the top of realistic human potential, a 35 is quite a bit beyond it, a 40 might be 'less than godlike' and a 45 might represent moving a mountain. This is quite a bit beyond what the default fiction envisages, but because there's a large scale difference in the numbers that heroic/paragon/epic PCs can achieve its quite possible to radically rescale the fiction attached to the different numbers. You simply cannot do that in 5e. If the hardest attainable DCs are super fantastic things, then low level characters will be achieve them. Not often, but if even one guard captain can say throw a giant, its going to be a pretty odd setting... Sure, you can create a different skill system in essence. But as with my example above, I can make 4e's fiction much grittier without much effort. I can simply set the DC for cracking through a barred door at 35, not 18. I can simply subtract 10' from broad jump results, so that even a 35 only gets you just barely beyond olympic record distance (or make up some other formula). In general most fiction doesn't even have ANY mechanical tie to a specific DC in 4e, so I can just set the DCs such that even 20th level 4e PCs can only accomplish modestly astounding things, not stupidly ridiculous things. No, I don't understand. The critical problem here in the 5e setup is the small growth in bonuses means you can't differentiate between heroes and ordinary people in terms of abilities and skills. The game simply cannot do it. No amount of picking different DCs will change that unless you start picking them purely on fictional grounds and ignoring mechanics. D&D is a level-based game, that's the whole core conceit is that as you level up you scale up in power. I don't think this is something I invented for rhetorical reasons. Its so core to D&D that I would dare say that a game where you use some other scaling system ISN'T D&D AT ALL. In a much more fundamental way than people said that about 4e! I don't think its 5e either TBH. I mean I can do anything I want if I just homebrew my own system. Heck, I was already lambasted once on this thread today for even making a contrast with my own homebrew. I think you need stronger arguments. [/QUOTE]
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