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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6650760" data-attributes="member: 996">OK.  Because it sounded like you were just taking another stab at the old edition war saw that 4e somehow "wasn't D&D."  Sure, 4e mechanics were much improved in clarity, balance, and (eventually) functionality over prior eds, but that's only 'better' in a very narrow and technical sense.  5e, in contrast, both rolls back some of those improvements and advises the DM to throw away the resulting mechanics at the slightest provocation - which creates an impression that they might not be very good mechanics - but the practice of running an RPG by GM fiat /can/ produce much 'better' games in a very different, more personal and immediate sense of 'better.'  So claims of 'superiority' of a system of edition should never be taken too seriously.  Mechanical details, and qualities like class or encounter balance can be quantified and judged objectively, but the full sweep & quality of play both depends on the DM (and players), and can be quite subjective. Ironic statements often are.   Two very different things.  It's only a flaw if the game was meant to foster a sense of PCs as larger-than-life heroes able to defeat foes that even armies couldn't.  One thing about the more recent versions of D&D is that they've done a better job of hitting their design goals than previous ones.  Both editions of AD&D tried to deliver some semblance of class balance, and largely failed.  4e succeeded neatly.  3.0 tried to empower the DM with Rule 0, yet RAW became the byword of the community.  5e has, so far, succeeded in an even more ambitious goal of DM empowerment.I don't think the continued relevance of armies is anything but another example of that.  Bounded Accuracy makes lower-level enemies a more credible threat.  That means large numbers of lower-level enemies are extremely dangerous, if they can all be brought to bear.  That delivers on a setting where PCs start out as 'apprentices' of little import - who can still accomplish /something/ because no one's every quite completley helpless - who rise in skill and ability, but don't become superhuman and untouchable without, that is, some sort of magic over and above merely gaining experience.  Thus PCs will often need to make stealth checks to get past an encamped army, rather than just wiping it out. Again, to the design-to-goals point, balanced classes isn't really a 5e design goal, but, while the classes may not be balanced in any strict sense, the DM is empowered to maintain a sort of 'spotlight balance' (that is, to make sure each PC has moments when his contributions are critical, important, or at least highlighted).And, yes, even though wizards, sorcerers & warlocks (and Clerics & Druids) may use many of the same spells, and wizards, clerics & druids (and Paladins, Rangers, EKs, & ATs) may use basically the same 'neo-Vancian' magic sub-system, each class still manages to play differently, thanks to different class features and a few spells unique to them, or at least, not common to all. I do wonder why the Dragon's classic 'fear aura' rarely gets mentioned, they'd scatter an army, initially, giving them time to retire to some lair or hiding place until the next raid. Proficiency in stealth is strictly superior to adding RA to stealth, and a Rogue is likely to prioritize DEX first - even if the Champion maked DEX his top priority (an archer, for instance), he'll only have a higher DEX than the Rogue for a couple of levels (most likely, level 6 and 7).  So, Rogue, proficient in Stealth already edges out RA+ASI, /and/ Expertise layers strict superiority over that.  /And/ Supreme Sneak is on top of that.  Leaving even a DEX-specialized fighter completely inferior compared to the rogue at sneaking.  (Which, y'know: sneaking is kinda the Rogue's thing.  Well, one of them, in addition to Sneak Attacking, finding/disarming traps, &c)Action Surge does not make you stronger.  It can make you faster, by using it for a second Dash action in one round.  That makes you 50%, for 6 seconds, and it takes a 1-hour 'short' rest before he can do it again.   For comparison, the Rogue's Cunning Action can also be used to Dash, and makes him 50% faster, for as long as he wants, since it's at-will and Haste grants a 100% increase speed (among other things) for up to 60 seconds. Those sound like Reactions, actually - and Action Surge can't be used for those. Not quite as rosy as it sounds.  When a human, for instance, gets a bonus feat at 1st level, that's a big deal. You pick your 1st-choice, most desirable feat and have it for 3 levels before anyone else can get it.  But, once you reach 4th, and pick the 2nd-best feat you can think of, everyone else who wants it has that 1st-choice feat.  So your bonus feat from 1st is actually getting you your 2nd-best feat, now.The fighter doesn't get his bonus feat until 6th, so it's not nearly as good.  It give the fighter his 2nd-best feat two levels early, then it shifts to getting his 3rd-choice of feat 4 levels early, and so on.  Just like the extra ASI, which gets you to 20 a level or two faster, the value of the 'bonus' feat declines with level. Over someone untrained, yes.  Over an escape artist, no, he has the edge.  Like the extra ASI, the bonus from RA can never give you an advantage over someone competent.  If RA stacked with proficiency, it'd be more useful - still only half as good as Expertise, but not virtually worthless. Improvisation and other DM rulings-notwithstanding-the-rules are not the system being robust, they're the system tapping out.  Not that the DM-empowerment pushed by 5e isn't a great thing - I love it, it's easily the best thing about 5e - just that it's not the system being robust.  Quite the opposite:  it's the system being so delicate, that you wisely put it in a safe place and don't use it when you know it'd break if you did.   RA is inferior to actual proficiency, which is available to all.  Most fighters are going to be proficient in some physical skills, anyway, rendering RA moot.  The fact that it's the Champion's only thing outside of combat is a clear illustration of how profoundly lack-luster a sub-class it is for anything but DPR.</blockquote>

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