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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6650890" data-attributes="member: 996">I didn't think we were.&nbsp; I thought we were discussing 5e, specifically the capabilities of the fighter class, at least, in this particular strand of the conversation.But 5e did have goals, and it did meet quite a few of them.Inclusiveness was one.&nbsp; You seem to think that it failed - and to be delighted by that.&nbsp; I disagree on both counts.&nbsp;The Martial source was not magical.&nbsp; That has, indeed, been softened in 5e, where both the Fighter and Rogue can /actually cast spells/.&nbsp; Again, that's a matter of inclusion, and giving more options (Fighters can be simple DPR machines, slightly more sophisticated and manage CS contribution to DPR, or provide DPR enhanced with spells).&nbsp; 5e is not some tyranny of the majority providing only one way to play.&nbsp;Yes, Erechel tried to move the goalposts by bringing background &amp; race into a comparison of class.&nbsp;Any background can be taken by any class.&nbsp; It is irrelevant in comparing classes.&nbsp; Same with Race. &nbsp;I'd like to think it was to represent non-magic-using archetypes from genre.&nbsp; And, I'm confident that's at least part of it.&nbsp; However, it seems obvious that it also serves as a base-line against which magic can shine and seem 'really magical' in it's superiority.&nbsp; I think the latter is unnecessarily clumsy and has too often resulted in class imbalances.&nbsp; But that's not really relevant, since class balance was not one of those 5e design goals, so expecting it would be unreasonable.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6650890, member: 996"] I didn't think we were. I thought we were discussing 5e, specifically the capabilities of the fighter class, at least, in this particular strand of the conversation. But 5e did have goals, and it did meet quite a few of them. Inclusiveness was one. You seem to think that it failed - and to be delighted by that. I disagree on both counts. The Martial source was not magical. That has, indeed, been softened in 5e, where both the Fighter and Rogue can /actually cast spells/. Again, that's a matter of inclusion, and giving more options (Fighters can be simple DPR machines, slightly more sophisticated and manage CS contribution to DPR, or provide DPR enhanced with spells). 5e is not some tyranny of the majority providing only one way to play. Yes, Erechel tried to move the goalposts by bringing background & race into a comparison of class. Any background can be taken by any class. It is irrelevant in comparing classes. Same with Race. I'd like to think it was to represent non-magic-using archetypes from genre. And, I'm confident that's at least part of it. However, it seems obvious that it also serves as a base-line against which magic can shine and seem 'really magical' in it's superiority. I think the latter is unnecessarily clumsy and has too often resulted in class imbalances. But that's not really relevant, since class balance was not one of those 5e design goals, so expecting it would be unreasonable. [/QUOTE]

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