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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6650928" data-attributes="member: 82106">First I never talked about &quot;Mr Hobo McTen&quot;, you guys made that up. I talked about a high stat ordinary person, who has at least a +4 (possibly a +5) stat bonus. I'll assume that 'ordinary people' have nothing like a proficiency bonus, but that's not established, and presumably if an NPC '0 level' human had one it would be +2, right?Anyway, the point is you can certainly achieve a 24 as a basic human. Making the same assumptions in 4e yields the same results, except that a 24 is a hard level 5 DC in 4e. So the limit of hard checks a normal 4e human can make is level 5. In 5e its hard to say what it is, its a 'hard check' for what its worth. Now you can make 'lifting a mountain' etc however hard you want, DC 30 whatever. There's just not a huge amount of room there between 'maybe a peasant can do it' and 'pretty much nobody can do it at all' (DC 30 being almost the limit of what you can do on an ability check). So, all the hyperbole about &quot;Mr McTen&quot; aside, there's a very narrow range in 5e such that if you need to push something off the top of the range for low level or even ordinary people you have to almost push it off the range for even 20th level PCs. That's the downside of BA. You guys don't seem to be able to acknowledge ANY downside, but that doesn't make it go away. This effect does put a hard limitation on the range of fiction you can attach to the check system in 5e. Its fine if you don't care about any of this, but trying to argue that it doesn't exist is just plain silly.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6650928, member: 82106"] First I never talked about "Mr Hobo McTen", you guys made that up. I talked about a high stat ordinary person, who has at least a +4 (possibly a +5) stat bonus. I'll assume that 'ordinary people' have nothing like a proficiency bonus, but that's not established, and presumably if an NPC '0 level' human had one it would be +2, right? Anyway, the point is you can certainly achieve a 24 as a basic human. Making the same assumptions in 4e yields the same results, except that a 24 is a hard level 5 DC in 4e. So the limit of hard checks a normal 4e human can make is level 5. In 5e its hard to say what it is, its a 'hard check' for what its worth. Now you can make 'lifting a mountain' etc however hard you want, DC 30 whatever. There's just not a huge amount of room there between 'maybe a peasant can do it' and 'pretty much nobody can do it at all' (DC 30 being almost the limit of what you can do on an ability check). So, all the hyperbole about "Mr McTen" aside, there's a very narrow range in 5e such that if you need to push something off the top of the range for low level or even ordinary people you have to almost push it off the range for even 20th level PCs. That's the downside of BA. You guys don't seem to be able to acknowledge ANY downside, but that doesn't make it go away. This effect does put a hard limitation on the [b]range[/b] of fiction you can attach to the check system in 5e. Its fine if you don't care about any of this, but trying to argue that it doesn't exist is just plain silly. [/QUOTE]

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