Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Why does 5E SUCK?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6654292" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>Half right. Yes, in 4e, you do go from being barely able to touch a higher level monster, to being able to take it on when you come 'even' with it, to completely rolling over it as you're far above it in level.</p><p></p><p>But, you can do that in 5e, too. The mechanisms are just a little different. In 4e it was mostly about attack bonus and AC, the much-lower-level creature had no chance, but playing through murdering it would be boring. In 5e, it's mostly about hps. The much-lower level creatures will still sting you, but you'll at least kill it quickly. Of course, that's using all of 5e's features, but ignoring one of 4e's: secondary monster roles. What really happens in 4e when you're facing enemies you completely out-class is that the DM will stat them as minions - they'll sting you like in 5e, but won't fold quite as instantaneously, needing actual hits, rather than all be swept away by some low-level AE spell whether they save or not, so your DM can still squeeze an interesting fight out of them.</p><p></p><p> Not true. In 4e, it's mostly your accuracy, your damage edges up, yes, but it doesn't balloon. In 5e, yes, your accuracy improves little over many levels - but your damage advances by leaps and bounds, just via multiple attacks and higher level slots.</p><p></p><p>Also, given a good enough CON bonus, your hps advance about twice as fast in 5e as 4e. </p><p></p><p>In spite of Bounded Accuracy censoring 'numbers porn' in attack/AC/skills in 5e, you can still check out some big, throbbing numbers (I said NUmbers!!) when it comes to damage & hps.</p><p></p><p> But, your number of attacks, for, say, a fighter, has gone from 1 at 1st to 3 at 11th, and your caster has gone from using 1st level slots to using 5th level ones that do far more damage.</p><p></p><p> Maybe not the best way to put it, considering the 'Treadmill' criticism. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p> Yes, the big difference wasn't that shift - it happened in prior eds, too, it's that the system was still functional.</p><p></p><p>5e also tries, with Bounded Accuracy, to retain basic functionality at higher levels, but it does seem like it could make 'higher level' less distinct in concept - the flip side of the 4e treadmill making higher levels less distinct in terms of certain net numbers.</p><p></p><p>In 4e, that was mostly an illusion, though, and I suspect it might be true in 5e, as well. I'll see for sure, if I ever get around to running high level 5e.</p><p></p><p> Ultimately, the DM can stat out Pandemonium or whatever if he likes - or wait for 5e Planescape, or adapt the existing stuff. When he does, he can make the challenges you face there tailored or status quo. The details of doing so well are different, but it's still possible.</p><p></p><p></p><p> IDK, the Thief in my current campaign is hitting 90% of the time when she backstabs...</p><p></p><p>Seriously, though, the way the DM stats out a monster depends on the challenge he wants it to present. I've used some pretty under-leveled monsters when the PCs have, in fact, come back to the same area and faced some exact same old enemies, and it is a tad dramatic the difference, say, 4 or 5 levels make , and doesn't make for the kind of fights you'd want to do a lot of, but once in a while, to demonstrate character growth, it can be fun. I very much found the same was true in 3.x, BTW. </p><p></p><p>The way I look at re-casting a monster in a different secondary role at a much higher or lower level, is that it is 'reaching' or 'toying' respectively. When you take a standard monster of much higher level, and bring it down to a Solo of the same exp value (there's the consistent, 'objective' bit, btw), you give it action-preservation, and additional powers - that represents it 'toying' with party a bit, doing stunts in combat it wouldn't risk against more dangerous enemies, for example. Go the other way, say 'minionizing' a standard 10 levels lower than the party, and it represents sheer desperation - all out attacks, desperate dodging, and dying/cringing in helpless fear/capitulating/running at the first hit.</p><p></p><p>Same creature, different circumstances, different performance. When you think about it, there's some verisimilitude there that's lacking if it just pushes the same attack buttons regardless of who it's up against.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6654292, member: 996"] Half right. Yes, in 4e, you do go from being barely able to touch a higher level monster, to being able to take it on when you come 'even' with it, to completely rolling over it as you're far above it in level. But, you can do that in 5e, too. The mechanisms are just a little different. In 4e it was mostly about attack bonus and AC, the much-lower-level creature had no chance, but playing through murdering it would be boring. In 5e, it's mostly about hps. The much-lower level creatures will still sting you, but you'll at least kill it quickly. Of course, that's using all of 5e's features, but ignoring one of 4e's: secondary monster roles. What really happens in 4e when you're facing enemies you completely out-class is that the DM will stat them as minions - they'll sting you like in 5e, but won't fold quite as instantaneously, needing actual hits, rather than all be swept away by some low-level AE spell whether they save or not, so your DM can still squeeze an interesting fight out of them. Not true. In 4e, it's mostly your accuracy, your damage edges up, yes, but it doesn't balloon. In 5e, yes, your accuracy improves little over many levels - but your damage advances by leaps and bounds, just via multiple attacks and higher level slots. Also, given a good enough CON bonus, your hps advance about twice as fast in 5e as 4e. In spite of Bounded Accuracy censoring 'numbers porn' in attack/AC/skills in 5e, you can still check out some big, throbbing numbers (I said NUmbers!!) when it comes to damage & hps. But, your number of attacks, for, say, a fighter, has gone from 1 at 1st to 3 at 11th, and your caster has gone from using 1st level slots to using 5th level ones that do far more damage. Maybe not the best way to put it, considering the 'Treadmill' criticism. ;) Yes, the big difference wasn't that shift - it happened in prior eds, too, it's that the system was still functional. 5e also tries, with Bounded Accuracy, to retain basic functionality at higher levels, but it does seem like it could make 'higher level' less distinct in concept - the flip side of the 4e treadmill making higher levels less distinct in terms of certain net numbers. In 4e, that was mostly an illusion, though, and I suspect it might be true in 5e, as well. I'll see for sure, if I ever get around to running high level 5e. Ultimately, the DM can stat out Pandemonium or whatever if he likes - or wait for 5e Planescape, or adapt the existing stuff. When he does, he can make the challenges you face there tailored or status quo. The details of doing so well are different, but it's still possible. IDK, the Thief in my current campaign is hitting 90% of the time when she backstabs... Seriously, though, the way the DM stats out a monster depends on the challenge he wants it to present. I've used some pretty under-leveled monsters when the PCs have, in fact, come back to the same area and faced some exact same old enemies, and it is a tad dramatic the difference, say, 4 or 5 levels make , and doesn't make for the kind of fights you'd want to do a lot of, but once in a while, to demonstrate character growth, it can be fun. I very much found the same was true in 3.x, BTW. The way I look at re-casting a monster in a different secondary role at a much higher or lower level, is that it is 'reaching' or 'toying' respectively. When you take a standard monster of much higher level, and bring it down to a Solo of the same exp value (there's the consistent, 'objective' bit, btw), you give it action-preservation, and additional powers - that represents it 'toying' with party a bit, doing stunts in combat it wouldn't risk against more dangerous enemies, for example. Go the other way, say 'minionizing' a standard 10 levels lower than the party, and it represents sheer desperation - all out attacks, desperate dodging, and dying/cringing in helpless fear/capitulating/running at the first hit. Same creature, different circumstances, different performance. When you think about it, there's some verisimilitude there that's lacking if it just pushes the same attack buttons regardless of who it's up against. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Why does 5E SUCK?
Top