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<blockquote data-quote="tyrlaan" data-source="post: 6655069" data-attributes="member: 20998"><p>Maybe I'm joining this chat late to the party, but why is a level 5 character picking Vecna's lock? </p><p></p><p>If I'm running a game and a level 5 character is in the position to pick "Vecna's lock", it's either because I wanted it to be a possibility or because the character is very much where he/she shouldn't be. If the lock can be picked at level 5, it's because I gave it a DC to make it achievable at that level. I really don't care what system you want to claim this fiction is occurring. Likewise, if in the same game the same character is picking "standard" tomb locks at level 10, they're not going to be a challenge unless there are some pretty impressive explanations to justify the discrepancy.</p><p></p><p>My question is - what does this have to do with what system you're playing? Sounds like just doing your job as a GM to me.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Exactly. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I see what you're trying to say, but I struggle to understand why you feel this way. </p><p></p><p>If I'm running a game with this "Vecna lock" in it, let a level 5 character crack it open, and then inform the player that it worked because I made the DC really low... well, yeah the sense of accomplishment will be tanked. </p><p></p><p>I don't agree that 5e is addressing anything with fixed DCs other than simplification. What you explain as the merit of 5e DC style is just something any GM can do in any game. Considering that the underlying principle of 5e is "hey GM, here is a backbone for you, the rest is on your shoulders to sort out", it seems reasonable to accept that this can be done in other games.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Create what problem? What intelligence level is to be assumed of the GM for any game system when written and do you assume different levels for different games? I ask because I don't understand how a GM could hose up the DC of a terrible lock in 4e and yet somehow have little to no risk of the same error in 5e.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't follow this either. If I play a game from 1 to 7 and save the world in it, I'm probably going to feel accomplished. And I'm going to feel mechanical accomplishment too because after all I started at level 1 and made it to level 7. And if I saved the world at level 7, maybe that's the end of the campaign. Or maybe some new universe spanning threat comes to bare. Or whatever. Really just not understanding what you are getting at with this comment.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why do you think this is different in 4e? </p><p></p><p>Why do you think a 5e GM, if planning to have an encounter with a dragon for the players at level 11 due to story development, might not adjust it's difficulty?</p><p></p><p>I think you're conflating encounter design with plot design. If I have something high level planned and the PCs aren't ready for it, as a GM I decide how I want to handle it. I don't, in 4e, suddenly decide to recalibrate the opponents just because they stumbled on them. I wouldn't do the same in 5e either. But if the story is ramping up faster than expected and something is coming to a head, I may choose to adjust the difficulty of an encounter because it's more interesting and satisfying to present a feasible challenge to the party rather than either handing them their assess because they did well and advanced the plot faster than expected or coming up with flimsy delaying tactics and random encounters so they can level up for the real fight. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Unsure how this is different from fighting orcs at low levels and giants at high levels in 4e. Actually, wouldn't it feel like an even <em>bigger</em> accomplishment because now you're going toe-to-toe with giants and can squish orcs like grapes!</p><p></p><p>Really I think what you're explaining is just what mechanical accomplishment will feel like to someone playing 5e. The reality is however, that accomplishment will feel different based on the rules of the game in which you play. So sure, that's how it works in 5e. It's just different.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Or it means, "if you want to challenge your players, be mindful of what numbers are challenging to them." Which is good advice for any game and any edition.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tyrlaan, post: 6655069, member: 20998"] Maybe I'm joining this chat late to the party, but why is a level 5 character picking Vecna's lock? If I'm running a game and a level 5 character is in the position to pick "Vecna's lock", it's either because I wanted it to be a possibility or because the character is very much where he/she shouldn't be. If the lock can be picked at level 5, it's because I gave it a DC to make it achievable at that level. I really don't care what system you want to claim this fiction is occurring. Likewise, if in the same game the same character is picking "standard" tomb locks at level 10, they're not going to be a challenge unless there are some pretty impressive explanations to justify the discrepancy. My question is - what does this have to do with what system you're playing? Sounds like just doing your job as a GM to me. Exactly. I see what you're trying to say, but I struggle to understand why you feel this way. If I'm running a game with this "Vecna lock" in it, let a level 5 character crack it open, and then inform the player that it worked because I made the DC really low... well, yeah the sense of accomplishment will be tanked. I don't agree that 5e is addressing anything with fixed DCs other than simplification. What you explain as the merit of 5e DC style is just something any GM can do in any game. Considering that the underlying principle of 5e is "hey GM, here is a backbone for you, the rest is on your shoulders to sort out", it seems reasonable to accept that this can be done in other games. Create what problem? What intelligence level is to be assumed of the GM for any game system when written and do you assume different levels for different games? I ask because I don't understand how a GM could hose up the DC of a terrible lock in 4e and yet somehow have little to no risk of the same error in 5e. I don't follow this either. If I play a game from 1 to 7 and save the world in it, I'm probably going to feel accomplished. And I'm going to feel mechanical accomplishment too because after all I started at level 1 and made it to level 7. And if I saved the world at level 7, maybe that's the end of the campaign. Or maybe some new universe spanning threat comes to bare. Or whatever. Really just not understanding what you are getting at with this comment. Why do you think this is different in 4e? Why do you think a 5e GM, if planning to have an encounter with a dragon for the players at level 11 due to story development, might not adjust it's difficulty? I think you're conflating encounter design with plot design. If I have something high level planned and the PCs aren't ready for it, as a GM I decide how I want to handle it. I don't, in 4e, suddenly decide to recalibrate the opponents just because they stumbled on them. I wouldn't do the same in 5e either. But if the story is ramping up faster than expected and something is coming to a head, I may choose to adjust the difficulty of an encounter because it's more interesting and satisfying to present a feasible challenge to the party rather than either handing them their assess because they did well and advanced the plot faster than expected or coming up with flimsy delaying tactics and random encounters so they can level up for the real fight. Unsure how this is different from fighting orcs at low levels and giants at high levels in 4e. Actually, wouldn't it feel like an even [i]bigger[/i] accomplishment because now you're going toe-to-toe with giants and can squish orcs like grapes! Really I think what you're explaining is just what mechanical accomplishment will feel like to someone playing 5e. The reality is however, that accomplishment will feel different based on the rules of the game in which you play. So sure, that's how it works in 5e. It's just different. Or it means, "if you want to challenge your players, be mindful of what numbers are challenging to them." Which is good advice for any game and any edition. [/QUOTE]
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