Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Why does 5E SUCK?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6657578" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>This is a very key point, one that I've made over and over and over again about several things with 4e. My only caveat here being that I do agree with @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=82106" target="_blank">AbdulAlhazred</a></u></strong></em> about 4e messaging being a bit more vacillating in some areas than I would have liked it to have been (and it wasn't all that vacillating...just more than I would have liked). You've seen me make posts about that before I'm sure. </p><p></p><p>4e was often raked over the coals for the perception of language that was meant to exclude playstyles, "skip the guards and get to the fun" being the most infamous. However, I don't feel that, sum total, 4e was nearly as divisive in its messaging than is claimed. In a lot of ways, it felt like it bent over backwards to caveat any strong messaging or exclusive language by embracing and explaining alternative approaches/player archetypes. In fact, my surmise is that Heinsoo would have liked to have had a much more focused, non-vacillating, and transparent instruction in the core books as he and Wyatt put out in 13th Age. My guess is that he met a lot of resistance internally and "too many cooks in the editor kitchen" made the core books have fantastic instruction but mixed messaging in certain key places. And beyond that, some of the decisions for language was just weird. It was like they were trying to "de-indify" some (obviously indie-inspired) things to make it more accessible (I guess) to some D&D players or to make it less controversial to grogs who hate indie games/The Forge (if this was the impetus for it, it wouldn't surprise me at all!). I mean, why in the world would you say "skip the guards and get to the fun" when Vincent Baker already established the clear, instructive, and less incendiary indie principle of "at every moment, push play towards conflict."</p><p></p><p>The DMG2 and Neverwinter (and several other books including Worlds and Monsters and tons of the online articles) suffered no such mixed messaging. In my estimation, they were as focused and as insightful as to the design impetus, play procedures, and play goals of 4e as one could have asked for.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6657578, member: 6696971"] This is a very key point, one that I've made over and over and over again about several things with 4e. My only caveat here being that I do agree with @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=82106"]AbdulAlhazred[/URL][/U][/B][/I] about 4e messaging being a bit more vacillating in some areas than I would have liked it to have been (and it wasn't all that vacillating...just more than I would have liked). You've seen me make posts about that before I'm sure. 4e was often raked over the coals for the perception of language that was meant to exclude playstyles, "skip the guards and get to the fun" being the most infamous. However, I don't feel that, sum total, 4e was nearly as divisive in its messaging than is claimed. In a lot of ways, it felt like it bent over backwards to caveat any strong messaging or exclusive language by embracing and explaining alternative approaches/player archetypes. In fact, my surmise is that Heinsoo would have liked to have had a much more focused, non-vacillating, and transparent instruction in the core books as he and Wyatt put out in 13th Age. My guess is that he met a lot of resistance internally and "too many cooks in the editor kitchen" made the core books have fantastic instruction but mixed messaging in certain key places. And beyond that, some of the decisions for language was just weird. It was like they were trying to "de-indify" some (obviously indie-inspired) things to make it more accessible (I guess) to some D&D players or to make it less controversial to grogs who hate indie games/The Forge (if this was the impetus for it, it wouldn't surprise me at all!). I mean, why in the world would you say "skip the guards and get to the fun" when Vincent Baker already established the clear, instructive, and less incendiary indie principle of "at every moment, push play towards conflict." The DMG2 and Neverwinter (and several other books including Worlds and Monsters and tons of the online articles) suffered no such mixed messaging. In my estimation, they were as focused and as insightful as to the design impetus, play procedures, and play goals of 4e as one could have asked for. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Why does 5E SUCK?
Top