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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6659465" data-attributes="member: 82106">I'm more happy with an epic feel to high level play. Its fine with me if level 15 PCs are flying a lot. It wouldn't be OK if it was level 8 PCs, though if they manage to snag such a ride on a good day, well good for them. Really, there's no strategic movement, or ways to ethereally skip around most of the dungeon to get to the treasure, etc? I mean I don't know for sure what all the high level spells say exactly, but I'm pretty sure classic teleportation is a thing, and I KNOW scrying is. Its a named consequence of the spell and thus takes place in the fiction. There are plenty of times when checks aren't needed. I'd think that if you were a castle guard and your friendly acquaintance walked past on his way out you'd pretty much just let him go by, unless there was some specific reason not to do so, like you're SURE he's not supposed to be there.But, as I say, you may well not have to make a check, and there are BOUND to be many things you could check for against a guy that is friendly to you that wouldn't even fly at all if he's a fairly suspicious guard.Oh, come now, the very thought that being INVISIBLE is of no use to you when sneaking around following/hiding/etc is just ludicrous, do you hear yourself? Honestly, cut past all the mechanical arguments and put yourself IN the fiction, wouldn't you want to be invisible? Wouldn't it be hugely beneficial? Yes, it would! End of story.I said, you could LEAVE, not that he would 'show you the treasure', but I'm on my way out of the castle, not wanting to be searched, and I come upon a guard. He's suspicious, I charm him, now he 'knows me' and is friendly, so why would he search me? Maybe he still might, if his orders were 'search absolutely everyone thoroughly no matter what', but chances are he's got discretion...No, we're looking at the FICTION and what the spells describe. They're not doing anything that the rules of the game don't directly tell you that they do. There's plenty of times when Charm Person won't work, but it CAN be a good bit more useful than you are giving credit for. Its not really even the best example anyway. Again, put yourself in the fiction. I've done some orienteering, and if I was not sure exactly where I was, then I'd absolutely want to get up higher and find my landmarks. I'd then relate them to trees, the Sun, or whatever else would be discernible from below. This is just an example, but its a clearly useful trick. I used the spell myself for a similar purpose, getting a view ahead in the forest when we heard a large creature moving a ways away. Turns out it was an ettin. I could see said ettin from a much greater distance than otherwise possible in the forest (and we avoided it, as we had other things to do).Look, I levitate to the height of the top of a railing on a balcony and step down, you're going to tell me this is so hard that it requires a climbing check? Or that its so hard that using the spell was nearly worthless? I think you're ignoring common sense sometimes here. I disagree, we're following exactly on what is written and the plainest possible interpretation of the basic effects of the magic. I've thoroughly read the text of all these spells. I don't believe you are correct. Read them again and use common sense. If I levitate so that my feet are even with a railing and step onto the railing and down onto the balcony its preposterous to call that climbing. Its preposterous to say that being invisible is of no use. Its preposterous to say a high vantage point isn't quite advantageous, or that a friendly acquaintance isn't going to be less suspicious and much more likely to ignore you than a hostile guard, or that if you alter self you are bound to have to pass close scrutiny. But really, when it comes down to it, its spells that do totally unique things that count most. Nobody but a wizard can make a wall of stone. And I can find a HELL of a lot of uses for that. Its OK, but when I have a dozen other spells of equal utility it is maybe bound to create an issue. As I've said before, I really strongly advocated for much narrower casters.</blockquote>

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