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Why does 5E SUCK?
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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 6659740" data-attributes="member: 957"><p>Untrue. He was specifically talking about needing to know that the PCs were Paragon and I was responding to that. </p><p>I'm willing to accept the current narrative in this thread (again, I'm glad to see the agreement), but I still maintain that knowing the level of the characters is completely unneeded. He was talking about a specific mountain, but he didn't know the DC until he knew the PCs were Paragon. If the PCs had been a different tier then THAT EXACT SAME MOUNTAIN would have been a different DC. Thus I saw him proclaiming the merits of "shifting DCs for static challenges".</p><p></p><p>Again, I'm good with accepting being corrected on this. But I still say that knowing the level or tier of the PCs should be irrelevant.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The approach I said was being praised is being praised. My comment was not in regard to the frustration of setting DCs. It was in regard to the relevance of PC level on DCs.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not saying it does. But I'm saying this is a significant difference and the way it has been describe in this very thread, reinforcing numerous prior conversations, creates the strong impression of "shifting DCs for static items".</p><p></p><p>I have stated many, many times now that I greatly respect that 4E nails a playstyle for a certain niche. And I'm still completely on that point. But the flip side of adding a whole mechanical rebuild to offer something a large community outside of that niche don't want or need is not good for forging a sustainable fanbase.</p><p></p><p>Yes, I understand and respect this. </p><p></p><p>But the tone of this conversation is swinging like a pendulum. People who didn't like 4E say that they like X about 5E and 4E fans start proclaiming that they were unfair to 4E because 4E did this just the same. Then the conversation moves to "but this is in 5E exactly the way I did it in 3E" and we hear that 4E is better. DCs in my 5E game function exactly like they do in my 3E/PF games. Yes, the range is tighter, but they still work the same and they still completely and fully ignore character level. Over three editions the approach has gone from A(static) to B(level based) to A(static). You can't reasonably say that B was a vast improvement over A when comparing 4E to 3E and then say that A and B are the same when comparing 5E to 4E.</p><p></p><p>Again, just to be clear, over and over in this thread I took exception to the insistence that PC level play any role in the setting of DCs. I see that as directly connected to "shifting DCs for static items". I accept that I've been enlightened that this is not mandatory.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 6659740, member: 957"] Untrue. He was specifically talking about needing to know that the PCs were Paragon and I was responding to that. I'm willing to accept the current narrative in this thread (again, I'm glad to see the agreement), but I still maintain that knowing the level of the characters is completely unneeded. He was talking about a specific mountain, but he didn't know the DC until he knew the PCs were Paragon. If the PCs had been a different tier then THAT EXACT SAME MOUNTAIN would have been a different DC. Thus I saw him proclaiming the merits of "shifting DCs for static challenges". Again, I'm good with accepting being corrected on this. But I still say that knowing the level or tier of the PCs should be irrelevant. The approach I said was being praised is being praised. My comment was not in regard to the frustration of setting DCs. It was in regard to the relevance of PC level on DCs. I'm not saying it does. But I'm saying this is a significant difference and the way it has been describe in this very thread, reinforcing numerous prior conversations, creates the strong impression of "shifting DCs for static items". I have stated many, many times now that I greatly respect that 4E nails a playstyle for a certain niche. And I'm still completely on that point. But the flip side of adding a whole mechanical rebuild to offer something a large community outside of that niche don't want or need is not good for forging a sustainable fanbase. Yes, I understand and respect this. But the tone of this conversation is swinging like a pendulum. People who didn't like 4E say that they like X about 5E and 4E fans start proclaiming that they were unfair to 4E because 4E did this just the same. Then the conversation moves to "but this is in 5E exactly the way I did it in 3E" and we hear that 4E is better. DCs in my 5E game function exactly like they do in my 3E/PF games. Yes, the range is tighter, but they still work the same and they still completely and fully ignore character level. Over three editions the approach has gone from A(static) to B(level based) to A(static). You can't reasonably say that B was a vast improvement over A when comparing 4E to 3E and then say that A and B are the same when comparing 5E to 4E. Again, just to be clear, over and over in this thread I took exception to the insistence that PC level play any role in the setting of DCs. I see that as directly connected to "shifting DCs for static items". I accept that I've been enlightened that this is not mandatory. [/QUOTE]
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