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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6659876" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Well, I will say this: I haven't spent the considerable time that [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] and I imagine [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] have in doing analysis of Forge discussion and reading up on theory in indy game design. I've read a lot of discussion about techniques and application, but I leave the heavy theoretical lifting to others.</p><p></p><p>So, during at least the earlier part of my 4e experience, I probably did frame the debate about 3e vs 4e DCs more in terms of making a DC system that gave some chance for most anyone to potentially pass a lot of DCs. I'd also note that the DMG1's released DC numbers support that, as the range of DCs is somewhat compressed vs later revisions. PHB1 also necessarily contained far fewer ways to amp up specific DCs and create a wider disparity than training + stat bonus, which by themselves only amount to a +10, not enough to push people off the d20 (and I'd note that even adding in Skill Focus and +3 for an item, and a racial bonus, etc doesn't push people astronomically far out in most cases). So at least in the beginning that seemed to be a design goal of 4e, and at the time I hadn't evolved so far in terms of story-driven technique. </p><p></p><p>TODAY I would say that I don't think I consider 'keeping everyone on the d20' to be critical. 5e obviously does, and if the game had been released in 2008, or maybe 2000, I'd have probably thought that was a great and worthy design goal. Now I think its fine if one guy has a much higher DC, the other guy just better bring some element into the conflict that lets him do something effective! And I'm not likely to ask for more than one check using a given skill before the fiction moves on, so at worst you get stuck trying to fumble through something, and hopefully you invent a reason why the endurance check is really arcana, or etc.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6659876, member: 82106"] Well, I will say this: I haven't spent the considerable time that [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] and I imagine [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] have in doing analysis of Forge discussion and reading up on theory in indy game design. I've read a lot of discussion about techniques and application, but I leave the heavy theoretical lifting to others. So, during at least the earlier part of my 4e experience, I probably did frame the debate about 3e vs 4e DCs more in terms of making a DC system that gave some chance for most anyone to potentially pass a lot of DCs. I'd also note that the DMG1's released DC numbers support that, as the range of DCs is somewhat compressed vs later revisions. PHB1 also necessarily contained far fewer ways to amp up specific DCs and create a wider disparity than training + stat bonus, which by themselves only amount to a +10, not enough to push people off the d20 (and I'd note that even adding in Skill Focus and +3 for an item, and a racial bonus, etc doesn't push people astronomically far out in most cases). So at least in the beginning that seemed to be a design goal of 4e, and at the time I hadn't evolved so far in terms of story-driven technique. TODAY I would say that I don't think I consider 'keeping everyone on the d20' to be critical. 5e obviously does, and if the game had been released in 2008, or maybe 2000, I'd have probably thought that was a great and worthy design goal. Now I think its fine if one guy has a much higher DC, the other guy just better bring some element into the conflict that lets him do something effective! And I'm not likely to ask for more than one check using a given skill before the fiction moves on, so at worst you get stuck trying to fumble through something, and hopefully you invent a reason why the endurance check is really arcana, or etc. [/QUOTE]
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