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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6660053" data-attributes="member: 996">So, Tobas (apprentice 'wizard,' able to start a small fire magically) beats Conan, King of Aquilonia?&nbsp; I don't think so. &nbsp;Wow, way out of context.&nbsp; Gandalf casting nothing more than 3rd level spells, and Merlin up to about 4th or so (maybe 9th, depending on how you think his precognition should be modeled) is not an indicator of their power in their respective stories.&nbsp; Gandalf was a Maiar, Merlin half-infernal, yet both needed to manipulate events because they couldn't just meet the challenges the heroes faced head-on. They were at or near the top of the supernatural heap, but Gandalf couldn't just destroy the One Ring or vaporize the Orcs of Mordor, and Merlin couldn't just turn England into a magocracy. Why?&nbsp; Because magic in those settings wasn't all-powerful, not even close.&nbsp; And, both performed feats of magic that mid-level D&amp;D casters could re-produce, using only a fraction of their repertoire.&nbsp; &quot;Gandalf was a 5th level Magic-user&quot; doesn't mean 5th level magic-users are the most powerful beings in the universe, it just means D&amp;D gave magic-users way too many toys.&nbsp;There's a few out-there examples, like Harry Potter, or (if you take psionics as magic, Lensmen), where it's all about the mages, and the rest of humanity might as well be ants.&nbsp; But it the more typical fantasy genre that preceded D&amp;D, you routinely see the martial hero defeating the magical villain.&nbsp; The villain may have fearsome press and do a handful of really impressive supernatural things, but in the end, he loss.&nbsp; You don't model that in a game by making the Villain strictly superior and hoping the hero gets lucky.&nbsp; You need to model some of the 'author power' in the story, with things like hps, saving throws - and 'plot coupons,' to do a really good job of it.Sure, just as you have different sorts of magic (arcane, divine, natural, &amp;c) and other supernatural powers (ki, psionics &amp;c), each comparable in overall PC effectiveness at a given level, but differentiated, often in subtle ways, you can have martial abilities that are distinct from supernatural ones, even as they grant comparable effectiveness to the martial PC (who thus might be downright super-human).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6660053, member: 996"] So, Tobas (apprentice 'wizard,' able to start a small fire magically) beats Conan, King of Aquilonia? I don't think so. Wow, way out of context. Gandalf casting nothing more than 3rd level spells, and Merlin up to about 4th or so (maybe 9th, depending on how you think his precognition should be modeled) is not an indicator of their power in their respective stories. Gandalf was a Maiar, Merlin half-infernal, yet both needed to manipulate events because they couldn't just meet the challenges the heroes faced head-on. They were at or near the top of the supernatural heap, but Gandalf couldn't just destroy the One Ring or vaporize the Orcs of Mordor, and Merlin couldn't just turn England into a magocracy. Why? Because magic in those settings wasn't all-powerful, not even close. And, both performed feats of magic that mid-level D&D casters could re-produce, using only a fraction of their repertoire. "Gandalf was a 5th level Magic-user" doesn't mean 5th level magic-users are the most powerful beings in the universe, it just means D&D gave magic-users way too many toys. There's a few out-there examples, like Harry Potter, or (if you take psionics as magic, Lensmen), where it's all about the mages, and the rest of humanity might as well be ants. But it the more typical fantasy genre that preceded D&D, you routinely see the martial hero defeating the magical villain. The villain may have fearsome press and do a handful of really impressive supernatural things, but in the end, he loss. You don't model that in a game by making the Villain strictly superior and hoping the hero gets lucky. You need to model some of the 'author power' in the story, with things like hps, saving throws - and 'plot coupons,' to do a really good job of it. Sure, just as you have different sorts of magic (arcane, divine, natural, &c) and other supernatural powers (ki, psionics &c), each comparable in overall PC effectiveness at a given level, but differentiated, often in subtle ways, you can have martial abilities that are distinct from supernatural ones, even as they grant comparable effectiveness to the martial PC (who thus might be downright super-human). [/QUOTE]

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