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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6660589" data-attributes="member: 82106">I just thought, when we fought the three owlbears under the dead wizard's tower for instance, that the wizard kinda had the day there. I forced one back with CoD, and a 2nd one back with T-Wave, and then both got murderized with ranged attacks. I don't know if we would have survived in close combat with several owlbears at once. It seemed like the linchpin of the Dragon Slaying/Trapping was the Alarm spell. Without some sort of magic along those lines we'd have had no plan at all. Fighting the bugbear king wasn't really so special, you're right, it could have been anyone. The fighters would have probably done it better. It was simply interesting that the wizard was tough enough to pull it off. Maybe that was more DM artifice than &quot;wizards are tough&quot;, I don't know. Alzardel certainly thought he was pretty tough! More recently we have other PC full casters, they seem pretty good too. At the same time, I don't think the casters dominate combat, but they seem fully capable of handling it. The two fighters, and the rogue too, certainly beat the bad guys down pretty hard. I just think it would be vastly tougher without casters, but less vastly tougher without fighters. Tactics would change, but a party of 5 casters would be pretty nice, and I think the old formula of casters ramping up more at higher levels overall is still true. 5e actively helps the non-casters, unlike 3e which seemed to undermine them, but it still runs on &quot;arcane/divine/primal magic outweighs mundane skills&quot; to a pretty large extent. I think some people were just arguing about how much that's true. Maybe when we're 20th level we'll be thinking everyone's character is an indispensable member of the team, and maybe not. We'll see, if we ever get there...</blockquote>

[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6660589, member: 82106"] I just thought, when we fought the three owlbears under the dead wizard's tower for instance, that the wizard kinda had the day there. I forced one back with CoD, and a 2nd one back with T-Wave, and then both got murderized with ranged attacks. I don't know if we would have survived in close combat with several owlbears at once. It seemed like the linchpin of the Dragon Slaying/Trapping was the Alarm spell. Without some sort of magic along those lines we'd have had no plan at all. Fighting the bugbear king wasn't really so special, you're right, it could have been anyone. The fighters would have probably done it better. It was simply interesting that the wizard was tough enough to pull it off. Maybe that was more DM artifice than "wizards are tough", I don't know. Alzardel certainly thought he was pretty tough! More recently we have other PC full casters, they seem pretty good too. At the same time, I don't think the casters dominate combat, but they seem fully capable of handling it. The two fighters, and the rogue too, certainly beat the bad guys down pretty hard. I just think it would be vastly tougher without casters, but less vastly tougher without fighters. Tactics would change, but a party of 5 casters would be pretty nice, and I think the old formula of casters ramping up more at higher levels overall is still true. 5e actively helps the non-casters, unlike 3e which seemed to undermine them, but it still runs on "arcane/divine/primal magic outweighs mundane skills" to a pretty large extent. I think some people were just arguing about how much that's true. Maybe when we're 20th level we'll be thinking everyone's character is an indispensable member of the team, and maybe not. We'll see, if we ever get there... [/QUOTE]

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