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Why does 5E SUCK?
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<blockquote data-quote="bert1000" data-source="post: 6660628" data-attributes="member: 29013"><p>Thanks for these. It’s always nice to talk concrete examples vs. generalities.</p><p></p><p>I do see some difference in what you are describing in some of the examples. Maybe I just object to the terminology. “Objective DC” and “Subjective DC” don’t get to the heart of the matter for me and also seem to have a bunch of baggage attached to the terms that further cloud things.</p><p></p><p>In the Dwarf and forge example, I imagine in the “objective DC” system you would look for an already established DC that indicates super hot – say resisting the heat of Hell – and set the DC close to that. But you’re right, that doesn’t take into consideration the PCs narrative place in the world. When the Dwarf makes the Endurance check it’s not really a straight up ‘can my skin handle this fire’. It’s more like ‘can this Dwarven paragon of XYZ pit himself against the forces of Moradin’s fire and magic forge and prevail’. There are ways to model this in the “objective system” if you had an exhaustive list of DCs and/or modifiers say</p><p></p><p>Regular Forge DC20</p><p>Forge of Moradin +10</p><p>Paragon of Moradin sticking hands into a fire created by moradin-10</p><p>Etc</p><p></p><p>But the “subjective system” has already pre-loaded all these assumptions into the math. This pre-loading might be the essence of “subjective”. It’s more like “narratively empowered skill checks”.</p><p></p><p>The “subjective DC” system involves loose definitions of what a skill check can mean. Encourages you to make sure you’re in the right ballpark in terms of appropriate challenge, and then use the level appropriate DC that gives you higher levels of drama. It also certainly encourages the ‘just in time’ DMing you talk about. </p><p></p><p>Thanks. I agree there is definitely something here that is independent of sandbox/exploration-led and scene framing/drama-led split.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="bert1000, post: 6660628, member: 29013"] Thanks for these. It’s always nice to talk concrete examples vs. generalities. I do see some difference in what you are describing in some of the examples. Maybe I just object to the terminology. “Objective DC” and “Subjective DC” don’t get to the heart of the matter for me and also seem to have a bunch of baggage attached to the terms that further cloud things. In the Dwarf and forge example, I imagine in the “objective DC” system you would look for an already established DC that indicates super hot – say resisting the heat of Hell – and set the DC close to that. But you’re right, that doesn’t take into consideration the PCs narrative place in the world. When the Dwarf makes the Endurance check it’s not really a straight up ‘can my skin handle this fire’. It’s more like ‘can this Dwarven paragon of XYZ pit himself against the forces of Moradin’s fire and magic forge and prevail’. There are ways to model this in the “objective system” if you had an exhaustive list of DCs and/or modifiers say Regular Forge DC20 Forge of Moradin +10 Paragon of Moradin sticking hands into a fire created by moradin-10 Etc But the “subjective system” has already pre-loaded all these assumptions into the math. This pre-loading might be the essence of “subjective”. It’s more like “narratively empowered skill checks”. The “subjective DC” system involves loose definitions of what a skill check can mean. Encourages you to make sure you’re in the right ballpark in terms of appropriate challenge, and then use the level appropriate DC that gives you higher levels of drama. It also certainly encourages the ‘just in time’ DMing you talk about. Thanks. I agree there is definitely something here that is independent of sandbox/exploration-led and scene framing/drama-led split. [/QUOTE]
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