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Why does 5E SUCK?
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<blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 6663015" data-attributes="member: 5834"><p>No. I'm saying I as the DM am under an obligation to ensure some semblance of balance regardless of the desires of the players. I make sure the game is balanced. I don't expect the players to do so. That is irresponsible DMing in my opinion. If as a DM you can't assess rule problems and create a solution to balance them, then it is your fault when the game goes off the rails. </p><p></p><p>It is my obligation to provide the players with a clear idea of how they should structure their backgrounds to fit the story. If I provide them with no clear direction for their background and they create one that doesn't fit the story, whose fault is that? It is my fault as a DM, not the players.</p><p></p><p>The DM has an obligation to provide clear guidance for the player to create a character. If the DM fails to do so, the player has no obligation to seek to do so himself. I consider such mistakes my failure. I have had this happen before where a player makes something that doesn't fit and I've had to tell him to make something else. When that happens, I screwed up, not the player. Same as I had to modify some class capabilities and spells to balance them after the player used them. That is the fault of the game designer, not the player. It is my obligation to make appropriate changes to balance the game.</p><p></p><p>I tend to consider it the DM's responsibility to consider all these things prior to play. The player's only responsibility is to follow the guidelines outlined by the DM. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>People are responsible for their fun. Not me, not the other players. Let me give you a clear example that occurs in my group quite often. One player likes to read the rules, read the message boards, and build a highly effective character he enjoys. Another player doesn't read the rules much, doesn't spend much time to build an effective character, and finds the min-maxing annoying. Which one do you side with? Player 1 or player 2? Player 2 has the option to do what player 1 does, but he chooses not to. Would it be fair to force player 1 to stop doing what he finds fun about the game? I don't think so. He's likes the game. He likes to spend his free time reading up on it. He likes to try things he's read up on. It makes player 2 unhappy.</p><p></p><p>I don't feel it is the responsibility of either player to rectify the situation. Player 1 is doing what he's doing to have fun. If player 2 doesn't enjoy it, he can either start reading up on the game as player 1 does or find another group. I'm not going to worry about taking responsibility for his lack of willingness to maximize his character. </p><p></p><p>Now take these two players and carry it over to the group. What if each player has a different reason they're not having fun? Then what? Do I rewrite the entire rule system until it is fun for everyone? Hardly my responsibility.</p><p></p><p>Each person is responsible for their character and their fun. I'm responsible for creating clear guidelines for character creation and handling what seem to be mathematically provable balance issues. I'm responsible for utilizing the character backgrounds in the story in a manner that is entertaining and fun for the players. I'm responsible for providing an entertaining and fun adventure experience. </p><p></p><p>The table, player and DM, is responsible for group problems like argumentative players or disagreements between the DM and players that must be worked out through discussion. Fun is too subjective to require a group to be responsible for it. I'm pretty sure we could all list countless examples of players enjoying the game in different ways that rubs other players the wrong way. If we tried to impose rules that limit the players, we would have trouble getting going. </p><p></p><p>I have a good enough group right now. They don't all spend time worrying about the other guy's fun. They accept each others differences, enjoy the company, and try to enjoy the adventure which I usually create in a fashion that allows everyone to enjoy their character and have fun. Each character having fun is more the responsibility of the DM.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I guess there's one thing.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celtavian, post: 6663015, member: 5834"] No. I'm saying I as the DM am under an obligation to ensure some semblance of balance regardless of the desires of the players. I make sure the game is balanced. I don't expect the players to do so. That is irresponsible DMing in my opinion. If as a DM you can't assess rule problems and create a solution to balance them, then it is your fault when the game goes off the rails. It is my obligation to provide the players with a clear idea of how they should structure their backgrounds to fit the story. If I provide them with no clear direction for their background and they create one that doesn't fit the story, whose fault is that? It is my fault as a DM, not the players. The DM has an obligation to provide clear guidance for the player to create a character. If the DM fails to do so, the player has no obligation to seek to do so himself. I consider such mistakes my failure. I have had this happen before where a player makes something that doesn't fit and I've had to tell him to make something else. When that happens, I screwed up, not the player. Same as I had to modify some class capabilities and spells to balance them after the player used them. That is the fault of the game designer, not the player. It is my obligation to make appropriate changes to balance the game. I tend to consider it the DM's responsibility to consider all these things prior to play. The player's only responsibility is to follow the guidelines outlined by the DM. People are responsible for their fun. Not me, not the other players. Let me give you a clear example that occurs in my group quite often. One player likes to read the rules, read the message boards, and build a highly effective character he enjoys. Another player doesn't read the rules much, doesn't spend much time to build an effective character, and finds the min-maxing annoying. Which one do you side with? Player 1 or player 2? Player 2 has the option to do what player 1 does, but he chooses not to. Would it be fair to force player 1 to stop doing what he finds fun about the game? I don't think so. He's likes the game. He likes to spend his free time reading up on it. He likes to try things he's read up on. It makes player 2 unhappy. I don't feel it is the responsibility of either player to rectify the situation. Player 1 is doing what he's doing to have fun. If player 2 doesn't enjoy it, he can either start reading up on the game as player 1 does or find another group. I'm not going to worry about taking responsibility for his lack of willingness to maximize his character. Now take these two players and carry it over to the group. What if each player has a different reason they're not having fun? Then what? Do I rewrite the entire rule system until it is fun for everyone? Hardly my responsibility. Each person is responsible for their character and their fun. I'm responsible for creating clear guidelines for character creation and handling what seem to be mathematically provable balance issues. I'm responsible for utilizing the character backgrounds in the story in a manner that is entertaining and fun for the players. I'm responsible for providing an entertaining and fun adventure experience. The table, player and DM, is responsible for group problems like argumentative players or disagreements between the DM and players that must be worked out through discussion. Fun is too subjective to require a group to be responsible for it. I'm pretty sure we could all list countless examples of players enjoying the game in different ways that rubs other players the wrong way. If we tried to impose rules that limit the players, we would have trouble getting going. I have a good enough group right now. They don't all spend time worrying about the other guy's fun. They accept each others differences, enjoy the company, and try to enjoy the adventure which I usually create in a fashion that allows everyone to enjoy their character and have fun. Each character having fun is more the responsibility of the DM. I guess there's one thing. [/QUOTE]
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