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<blockquote data-quote="Ratskinner" data-source="post: 6667978" data-attributes="member: 6688937"><p>hmm....you're wary of "Story Game" but okay with "Narrativist" and "Story Now".</p><p></p><p> If it matters, a "Story Game" to me is a game where the objective or result of play is the creation of a (non-degenerate in the mathematical sense) story. To be clear, many games and sports, D&D included produce a series of events which humans can cast into a story. We do that. The distinction is that a story game does it on purpose.</p><p></p><p>WRT D&D and "Story Now" play, I actually think (in a general sense) that the best way to facilitate that is through the XP system (see the Sweet20 XP system). </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think I would mechanically equate something like Fate/Hero/Story points with a spread of specific spendable actions like 4e has for two reasons:</p><p>1) They aren't abstract or completely meta-fictional. That is to say, your power is your power, it can't be used to mean anything that strikes your fancy (even if your DM is liberal with your application rules). There is also (within 4e at least) a bit of a grey area regarding whether the characters are cognizant of what powers they have. Some classes seem narratively aware of them by necessity, while others aren't.</p><p>2) Tactical confoundment. As you note, the powers are rather loaded towards the combat arena of play. Which is fine, but introducing the tactical element into the mix also distracts from "Story Now" usage of those points. A player might find himself using a nominally more important power in a fight he cares little about, simply because he knows he'll have time to recharge before it becomes important for his storyline. That's sorta the opposite of how you'd expect a Story Point system to work. (Alternatively, this cast doubt on the entire weight of level as a mechanical concept in 4e.)</p><p>(Neither of which makes them a poor mechanic, BTW, for anyone who cares.)</p><p></p><p>However, this is one of the reasons I don't like "Narrativist" and "Story Now" (and the GNS model) as much as I once might have. Many groups have historically used similar mechanics for very different GNS ends and it can become quite murky and unclear when such play is or isn't occuring. Narrativist play goals, IME, seems to lend itself most easily to leveraging mechanics for its use by a willing group.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>My experience with 4e is rather limited, but I think most of those non-combat gains were made during the 3e era (even if rather clumsily at points). Although I would give 4e credit for pushing the idea of framing scenes (introduced quietly in 2e and quickly forgotten.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I only call it less complex that way in that there are fewer distinct subsystems to recall. This allows a DM more confidence to spontaneously rule on unusual situations. That is, its easier to declare that "I'll say <weird thing> will give you a +2 to your roll" when you know it will be a D20 roll and not having to first reference whether that roll will be D20, 2d6, d%, etc. and a lookup table. IIRC, 3.0 relied on this a decent amount while 3.5 actually removed a lot of this kind of ruling by adding official modifier charts to almost every skill. In the end, I actually think D20 had a higher load at-table, but mostly that was through the modifier accounting, not having to stop and check on what dice and table to roll for event X or Y in play. My limited experience with 4e agrees with yours that 3e and 4e did little to reduce that accounting load during play. </p><p></p><p>In any case, work is calling again.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ratskinner, post: 6667978, member: 6688937"] hmm....you're wary of "Story Game" but okay with "Narrativist" and "Story Now". If it matters, a "Story Game" to me is a game where the objective or result of play is the creation of a (non-degenerate in the mathematical sense) story. To be clear, many games and sports, D&D included produce a series of events which humans can cast into a story. We do that. The distinction is that a story game does it on purpose. WRT D&D and "Story Now" play, I actually think (in a general sense) that the best way to facilitate that is through the XP system (see the Sweet20 XP system). I don't think I would mechanically equate something like Fate/Hero/Story points with a spread of specific spendable actions like 4e has for two reasons: 1) They aren't abstract or completely meta-fictional. That is to say, your power is your power, it can't be used to mean anything that strikes your fancy (even if your DM is liberal with your application rules). There is also (within 4e at least) a bit of a grey area regarding whether the characters are cognizant of what powers they have. Some classes seem narratively aware of them by necessity, while others aren't. 2) Tactical confoundment. As you note, the powers are rather loaded towards the combat arena of play. Which is fine, but introducing the tactical element into the mix also distracts from "Story Now" usage of those points. A player might find himself using a nominally more important power in a fight he cares little about, simply because he knows he'll have time to recharge before it becomes important for his storyline. That's sorta the opposite of how you'd expect a Story Point system to work. (Alternatively, this cast doubt on the entire weight of level as a mechanical concept in 4e.) (Neither of which makes them a poor mechanic, BTW, for anyone who cares.) However, this is one of the reasons I don't like "Narrativist" and "Story Now" (and the GNS model) as much as I once might have. Many groups have historically used similar mechanics for very different GNS ends and it can become quite murky and unclear when such play is or isn't occuring. Narrativist play goals, IME, seems to lend itself most easily to leveraging mechanics for its use by a willing group. My experience with 4e is rather limited, but I think most of those non-combat gains were made during the 3e era (even if rather clumsily at points). Although I would give 4e credit for pushing the idea of framing scenes (introduced quietly in 2e and quickly forgotten.) I only call it less complex that way in that there are fewer distinct subsystems to recall. This allows a DM more confidence to spontaneously rule on unusual situations. That is, its easier to declare that "I'll say <weird thing> will give you a +2 to your roll" when you know it will be a D20 roll and not having to first reference whether that roll will be D20, 2d6, d%, etc. and a lookup table. IIRC, 3.0 relied on this a decent amount while 3.5 actually removed a lot of this kind of ruling by adding official modifier charts to almost every skill. In the end, I actually think D20 had a higher load at-table, but mostly that was through the modifier accounting, not having to stop and check on what dice and table to roll for event X or Y in play. My limited experience with 4e agrees with yours that 3e and 4e did little to reduce that accounting load during play. In any case, work is calling again. [/QUOTE]
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