Why does a SciFi RPG "need" skills?

[ExploderWizard]

Well, obviously classes and skill systems are not mutually exclusive. I happen to think that a skill system is the best way to model a lot of sci-fi tasks (research, hacking, medical treatment, scanning for life signs, etc.) regardless of whether those skills are specific to individual classes.

But there are probably sci-fi genres that could do without.

I generally disagree with the mutually exclusive sentiment. Games featuring classes are better off without a fiddly skill system tacked on and games with a good comprehensive skill system have no need of classes in the first place.

I can enjoy a good game of either type but find most hybid systems to be irritating to some degree.

 

[Neonchameleon]

In fiction and RPGs, the protagonist gets thrust into situations they are ill-suited for just as often as they are well suited for them. The clever ones manage to MacGuyver a solution that sometimes works.

That's can't happen if the Shuttle Pilot gets +20 to his piloting rolls, and +0 to anything else because absolute lack of skill in a skills-based RPG pretty much means lack of any practical chance.

This is a skill/stat spread issue. If the range is +20 on 1d20 then everyone else is hosed unless the pilot does the piloting. Fate Core has a range of -4 to +4 on the dice and the chance to throw in Fate points, and starting skill + stunt reaches from 0 to +6. Leverage and Firefly have skills ranging from d4 to d12, but your skill is only one of the three or so dice you should be rolling, and you take the highest two.

For the purposes of an RPG, isn't a GM going to present situations in which there is SOMETHING the PC can do, if they think of it?

Depends on the GM. I don't pitch to my players - and I think they'd be bored if I did.

First, answer the question, "How many fantasy games use class based systems, and how many do not?" How many of the class-based fantasy systems currently out there aren't retroclones?

Off the top of my head, class based is a lot more popular than people give it credit for being. If we use Fantasy loosely, White Wolf games are also class-based (what do you think the vampire clans are from a mechanical perspective other than classes?) The entire Apocalypse World family is class based, and Dungeon World's the only one of those that can plausibly be described as a retroclone. In the top ten hot RPGs at present, 13th Age (2), Numenera (3), World of Darkness (4), and Exalted (7) are class based with Traveller (8), WH40k (9), and Edge of Empire (10) all being hybrid career based systems.

 

[Umbran]

If we use Fantasy loosely, White Wolf games are also class-based (what do you think the vampire clans are from a mechanical perspective other than classes?)

I think that's using fantasy loosely. More importantly, they use classes loosely. Specifically with respect to skills - athe classes may influence access to certain supernatural powers, they don't generally restrict or advance access to skills. This, in comparison to SWSE, in which a character cannot train in a skill if it isn't on their class list, or 3e's "class skill/cross-class skill" differentiation, and number of skill points per level by class. Thus, I think WW is irrelevant to the conversation.

The entire Apocalypse World family is class based

Granted. The Powered by the Apocalypse" engine dates to 2010. But only Dungeonworld really counts as being Fantasy.

In the top ten hot RPGs at present, 13th Age (2), Numenera (3)

13th age is d20, so as much a direct D&D descendant as Pathfinder.

World of Darkness (4), and Exalted (7)

If it works as WoD, then Exalted's classes really aren't relevant for the skill-discussion, are they?

Traveller (8), WH40k (9), and Edge of Empire (10) all being hybrid career based systems.

Traveller certainly isn't fantasy. Edge of the Empire is Star Wars, which is only arguably fantasy.

So, Warhammer, Dungeonworld, and two games that only came out a couple of months ago, one of which is unabashedly d20? Doesn't sound too prevalent, to me.

 

[WayneLigon]

Yeah, the Big Bang Theory pretty much exposed the world to the revelation that Indie could have stayed home and the exact same things would have happened.

What a silly conclusion. The Nazis would have possession of the Ark and would have no compunction about sacrificing a couple guys to haul it out to a battlefield and pop the top, vaporizing everyone on the other side.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I think that's using fantasy loosely. More importantly, they use classes loosely. Specifically with respect to skills - athe classes may influence access to certain supernatural powers, they don't generally restrict or advance access to skills. This, in comparison to SWSE, in which a character cannot train in a skill if it isn't on their class list, or 3e's "class skill/cross-class skill" differentiation, and number of skill points per level by class. Thus, I think WW is irrelevant to the conversation.

OK. Let's use Fantasy tightly then.

Fantasy games on the Hot RPGs list.

(2) 13th Age. Which I'll grant is very D&D.
(15) Dungeon World. Again, very D&D.
(19) WFRP. A career based hybrid.
(23) The One Ring. Our first non-class-based game.
(32) A Song of Ice And Fire. I think the first one was class-based, the Green Ronin one is classless.
(34) Ars Magica. Arguable given the troupe play. Technically class based.
(36) True 20. Class based.
(38) Iron Kingdoms RPG. Class based (both times)
(40) Dragon Age. Class based.
(44) Runequest. Classless I think.
(49) Earthdawn. Class based.

I'm surprised Rolemaster (and MERP) don't show on the list. But they are also class based.

 

[Umbran]

OK. Let's use Fantasy tightly then.

Fantasy games on the Hot RPGs list.

(2) 13th Age. Which I'll grant is very D&D.

You missed:
FATE - which comes in at #1, and is classless.
Savage Worlds - Which comes in at #6, and is classless.
GURPS - which comes in at #12, and is classless.
All do have the problem that we don't know how much of these generic systems are used for Fantasy, and how much for other genres.

(15) Dungeon World. Again, very D&D.
(19) WFRP. A career based hybrid.

Once we drop out of the top 20, I think we're really out in the middle of nowhere, as they're getting like 1% of the discussion traffic. Even Dungeon World gets less than 2% of the discussion on the list.

 

[Morrus]

Even Dungeon World gets less than 2% of the discussion on the list.

Bear in mind than 1 in 50 people is a LOT of people!

 

[Umbran]

Bear in mind than 1 in 50 people is a LOT of people!

Well, in my own mind, at least, I'm being very careful - I'm thinking of it in terms of "amount of discussion". Not in terms of people - 2% of posters or posts (I don't actually know which you're counting) doesn't translate to 2% of play or players, or anything directly. I'm thinking of it only as "a small part of the overall pie".

 

[Neonchameleon]

You missed:
FATE - which comes in at #1, and is classless.
Savage Worlds - Which comes in at #6, and is classless.
GURPS - which comes in at #12, and is classless.
All do have the problem that we don't know how much of these generic systems are used for Fantasy, and how much for other genres.

Indeed. I did not miss them. I was looking at fantasy systems, not generic ones because that's a different category.

But getting back to the original subject, the reason that a lot of games use classes is because it makes character creation and understanding where you fit much easier and faster. To call Apocalypse World (to take the system that the Dungeon World engine was created for) inspired by D&D is a joke. A class pulls out the most notable thing about how someone behaves and puts it front and centre. In my experience newbies find it much harder to create characters without classes, careers, lifepaths, or some other predefined sharply limited option list. I like GURPS - but give a newbie the entire GURPS character creation system and their eyes glaze over - and even Fate can cause trouble this way. Offer them three WFRP careers, or a few D&D classes and they know where to start.