Why don't dwarves like magic?

[magnas_veritas]

Dwarves, in many different cultures, are viewed as magical. There are several good examples from the Celtic, Norse, and Germanic traditions. (Dwarves even forged Thor's hammer, Mjolnir.)

Also, apparently Egyptians and Meso-Americans thought dwarves rocked at magic. There are supposedly traditions about dwarves raising one of the Mayan pyramids in a single night.

I say supposedly, since this comes from Graham Hancock's Fingerprints of the Gods, which might be a bit dodgy. But *very* useful for gaming purposes...it helps give reasons why all these unoccupied dungeons might be laying about.

Brad

 

[Desdichado]

I disagree; I think Tolkien's dwarves with their infamous resistance to the corrupting "magic" of Sauron is the basis for the non-magical dwarf of D&D today. But I agree; dwarf culture in D&D has taken on a life of it's own beyond Tolkien. As has elvish culture, for that matter.

 

[WizarDru]

You elf-loving so and sos....the dwarves are the victims, here! Why doesn't magic like dwarves? Huh? Ask yourselves that!


Ahem.


Tolkien's world is only one basis for the D&D dwarf, as has been mentioned. More importantly, the D&D definition of a 'magic item' is pretty poor for such items in Tolkien's world.

Sam makes comments about just that as the group prepares to leave Lothlorien in 'Fellowship'. The elves don't view what they do as 'magical', and truthfully, they aren't. They're just so amazing (the elves and their creations) that to non-elves, they seem magical. A bow so well made that it always strikes true, a cloak that makes the wearer seem to become part of his surroundings or a sword so well made that it feels the evil of goblins and reacts to them...the elves don't see these items as magic...though clearly the hobbits do, even down to the rope and bread the elves make.

The dwarves, by extension, are much the same. Their creator is the valar of smiths, and they carry his tradition. They too crafted great items of value and skill. The mitrhil shirt that Frodo wears is not magical...but it seems so to those unable to fashion such. Again, the dwarves of Tolkien are craftsmen beyond belief, creating items that are magical without actually being magic in their eyes. The door to Moria, though, may be an exception, as it may possibly have been crafted by both dwarves and elves.

Note, though, that the most powerful items of Tolkiens world are either divine (the silmarils) or forged by Elves and Sauron, not dwarves (the rings)

 

[Gunslinger]

It can't be the beards, because having a beard is a quintessential part of being an archetypal wizard.

 

[The Sigil]

Note, though, that the most powerful items of Tolkiens world are either divine (the silmarils) or forged by Elves and Sauron, not dwarves (the rings) [/B]

Nitpick - the Silmarils were not divine - they were created by Feanor, an elf.

I think the whole thing comes down to the nature of dwarves as portrayed in D&D. They are very much "materialistic" in the sense that they want to see and touch and feel things. They create things out of stone and metal because such things last and are enduring. This makes them "more" materialistic than wood (which rots, cracks, gets waterlogged) etc.

Magic, being something you cannot see and touch (you may be able to see and touch the results, but not the magic itself) is much less intuitive to dwarves.

In Tolkien's myths, the dwarves were creations of Aule, who was most in love with the work of his hands. They received that love from him. Dwarves love what they have made with their hands... since stone and metal require more shaping than wood, that also makes them instruments of choice (not to mention that because Aule hid the creation of the dwarves from Yavanna, she cursed them not to love living things - like trees - as she did).

Magic is not something you have shaped with your hands and the result of magic is thus not the result of "honest work and labor." Magic is a shortcut... and I have always felt that dwarves respect the work that went into the product far more than the finished product itself. That's why a fantastically made item is so valuable to them - not because it's so intricate and cool-looking, but because the dwarf can imagine to himself all the work that must have gone into it. Thus, magic just simply doesn't command respect among dwarves because it takes little effort compared to the results.

LOL... kind of like the paperless office thread. Dwarves want tangible stuff like paper. Paperless is more ephemeral and anathema to them (magic).

--The Sigil

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I think the whole thing comes down to the nature of dwarves as portrayed in D&D. They are very much "materialistic" in the sense that they want to see and touch and feel things.

That's the description of a pervert, not a dwarf

Magic is a shortcut...

I just love Pratchetts "comment" on this: On the Discworld, the gods have degreed that you always need the equal amount of labour to do a specified task, no matter how it's done. Soe casting a spell to say, create a wooden bridge takes as long as building the damn bridge by hand. He also uses the preparation-thing D&D uses, but a little differently: It's part (and the biggest part) of the labour you need to cast spells. You go spend months to memorize that spell, but you say the words and - poof! - the spell's gone in a second. Rincewind has an apt comment about that: "Why spend 20 years to memorize the spell to summon nude virgins into your bedchamber if you won't remember what to do with them after all the time?"

But back to the subject....

The only spellcasters in the books seemed to be Gandalf and the other wizards.

And Gandalf couldn't really cast anything big, too. He used a spell of light and a fireball IIRC. By D&D standards he was just a 5th- or 6th-level wizard (let's go get a couple of high-level magic, planeshift to Ea and take over the place )

 

[Sejs]

I just love Pratchetts "comment" on this: On the Discworld, the gods have degreed that you always need the equal amount of labour to do a specified task, no matter how it's done. Soe casting a spell to say, create a wooden bridge takes as long as building the damn bridge by hand. He also uses the preparation-thing D&D uses, but a little differently: It's part (and the biggest part) of the labour you need to cast spells. You go spend months to memorize that spell, but you say the words and - poof! - the spell's gone in a second. Rincewind has an apt comment about that: "Why spend 20 years to memorize the spell to summon nude virgins into your bedchamber if you won't remember what to do with them after all the time?"

I love Pratchett's view on the "Thumb on the scales of the universe" method of spellcasting, heh. You want to fly around? Sure - the easiest, least strenuous way to do it is to have your spell also cause something heavy and massive (about, oh say as much as the caster) fall down around the same time you want to go up.

 

[De Arco]

You must find out what gender the other one is.

I don't know if you caught this. Pratchett's dwarves don't care what the other gender is. A homosexual relationship is seen as just as valid as a heterosexual one. Everyone is a dwarf.

oops. Didn't mean to hijack the thread....

I like the rational about dwarves not liking magic because their gods of magic were corrupted to evil. Although I think everyone here realizes that the reason that dwarves don't like magic is that studying spellbooks cuts into their ale sampling time.

 

[Dakkareth]

And Gandalf couldn't really cast anything big, too. He used a spell of light and a fireball IIRC. By D&D standards he was just a 5th- or 6th-level wizard (let's go get a couple of high-level magic, planeshift to Ea and take over the place )

He also used some combination of stomp and shout, not to forget control flame. Not that it will make a difference against an empowered meteor swarm quickened by a rod of metamagic ...

 

[LoneWolf23]

The way I see it, Dwarves use just as much magic as any other race. They just don't use flashy, fireball-type spells. They prefer reliable Stat-Enhancing items or magic weapons.

And why? Because they remain pragmatic individuals who prefer a grounding in physical matters. Rather the try and command abstract and ethereal forces, they prefer magic they can touch and hold. They should be masters of magic item creation and master builders of Golems.