Why don't everything scale by proficiency bonus?

I think because of this it makes more sense to leave it at skills, but there's some ability scores I wouldn't be particularly opposed to increasing by level.
You could increase the /check/ by level, I suppose.

Then skill or proficiency gives a flat bonus, the scaling coming, indirectly, from level, via the stat?

Fewer numbers to write down.
 

Slit518

Explorer
Of course. But if playing a flute had even a little bit to do with carpentry then surely you would at least be better at it than you were before you began your career.

What skills have even a little bit to do with adventuring? Because those skills you should be a little bit better at than when you first started adventuring. Right?
Hi, my name is Tim, and I am a Wizard. My goal is to become really powerful in the ancient arts and learn old, powerful magics.

I spend most of my career researching in libraries and museums, however, that can only get me so far.

So I spend another portion of my career meeting in lodges with other Wizards, sharing magical secrets.

However, I feel my progress has come at a bit of a stand still, so I must do the next best thing!

I am going to venture out to places of great magic, and see if I can unearth their secrets!

****

Hi, it is me, Tim again!

Boy, was that a journey that took me a decade and a half.

I met a lot of really neat people!

But there were a lot of scary times too!

Luckily, I never had to squash anything, well, maybe a big rat, but aside from that, all of the places I went to were uninhabited like they were for centuries before me!

One of the places required me to climb this really big wall which was slick with water, but that is okay, because I just levitated right up that obstacle!

Yeah, I did that cool spell, learned it from a Wizard many years back.

Another place had some gnarly looking water I might had to of swam through, but luckily I was able to teleport to the other side!

That spell? Learned it from a fairy just the night before.

In case you're wondering, I'm not very strong, so my Athletic skills aren't the best.

That is why I spent my formative years studying, to supplement my weaknesses!

Somebody once asked me if I would ever wield a sword.

Why wield a sword when you can cast a spell to do it for you?!?

I'm no good at History either, believe it or not.

But, I didn't have to worry, because my Divination game was on point!

Now, what way is North? I know! *casts a spell that tells him North*

As you can tell, Tim the Wizard is very excited to tell us about his journey that turned him from a simple Novice, to a Grand Master.

But, it seems Tim didn't improve on certain things. But why?

Perhaps it is because he relied too much on other things to get the job done for him?

Kind of like other characters who lack and have party members who can do it for them.
 
You could increase the /check/ by level, I suppose.

Then skill or proficiency gives a flat bonus, the scaling coming, indirectly, from level, via the stat?

Fewer numbers to write down.
That has merit. It also helps keep the character concept roughly intact as you level. The gap between the things you are good at and the things you are not stays about the same (of course additional ASi's could be granted just as they are now in addition to this scaling).
 
Hi, my name is Tim, and I am a Wizard. My goal is to become really powerful in the ancient arts and learn old, powerful magics.

I spend most of my career researching in libraries and museums, however, that can only get me so far.

So I spend another portion of my career meeting in lodges with other Wizards, sharing magical secrets.

However, I feel my progress has come at a bit of a stand still, so I must do the next best thing!

I am going to venture out to places of great magic, and see if I can unearth their secrets!

****

Hi, it is me, Tim again!

Boy, was that a journey that took me a decade and a half.

I met a lot of really neat people!

But there were a lot of scary times too!

Luckily, I never had to squash anything, well, maybe a big rat, but aside from that, all of the places I went to were uninhabited like they were for centuries before me!

One of the places required me to climb this really big wall which was slick with water, but that is okay, because I just levitated right up that obstacle!

Yeah, I did that cool spell, learned it from a Wizard many years back.

Another place had some gnarly looking water I might had to of swam through, but luckily I was able to teleport to the other side!

That spell? Learned it from a fairy just the night before.

In case you're wondering, I'm not very strong, so my Athletic skills aren't the best.

That is why I spent my formative years studying, to supplement my weaknesses!

Somebody once asked me if I would ever wield a sword.

Why wield a sword when you can cast a spell to do it for you?!?

I'm no good at History either, believe it or not.

But, I didn't have to worry, because my Divination game was on point!

Now, what way is North? I know! *casts a spell that tells him North*

As you can tell, Tim the Wizard is very excited to tell us about his journey that turned him from a simple Novice, to a Grand Master.

But, it seems Tim didn't improve on certain things. But why?

Perhaps it is because he relied too much on other things to get the job done for him?

Kind of like other characters who lack and have party members who can do it for them.
Once you realize you can come up with a fictional character that pokes holes in any system then those examples become meaningless to you. Seriously, you can do what you just did to any system. I could make a character that uses my suggested level scaling and show D&D as it is can't accommodate that character.

The crucial question is which system is more typical of adventurers in general. That's the best we are going to do (at least with a "fair" character creation method). I tend to think the typical adventurers get better at basic adventuring tasks. Do you disagree? Do you think Tim the Wizard is representative of the typical adventurer, or even the typical wizard?

(by the way I'm all for a tacking on a module to my proposed one that lets you make some skills not scale with level in exchange for extra scaling in the same number. This helps with character concepts a lot).
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Tim the /Enchanter/ is not amused by this upstart, diluting his name recognition.

Seriously, though, Tim has plenty of hit points, in spite of never getting in a real fight.
And my warrior Joe wonder how he avoided making Dex and Wis saves and Perception checks he must be pretty clever
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Cleric Bob can't understand how he's no better at Religion than the day he started adventuring 20 years ago.
You would have thought he would pick up something channelling divine power but I think its like real life ... zealots only know about their own religion and there isnt really much to know. Its heathens that study lots of religions.
 
You would have that he would pick up something channelling divine power but I think its like real life ... zealots only know about their own religion and there isnt really much to know. Its heathens that study lots of religions.
Maybe or maybe your telling me he didn't learn enough about his own religion in 20 years to even get a +1 bonus...
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Maybe or maybe your telling me he didn't learn enough about his own religion in 20 years to even get a +1 bonus...
That must be it.

Cause the game isnt real life and confusing it with that turns your action adventure wizard into an insane pseudoscience scholar of some sort who sees things.
 

Slit518

Explorer
Once you realize you can come up with a fictional character that pokes holes in any system then those examples become meaningless to you. Seriously, you can do what you just did to any system. I could make a character that uses my suggested level scaling and show D&D as it is can't accommodate that character.

The crucial question is which system is more typical of adventurers in general. That's the best we are going to do (at least with a "fair" character creation method). I tend to think the typical adventurers get better at basic adventuring tasks. Do you disagree? Do you think Tim the Wizard is representative of the typical adventurer, or even the typical wizard?

(by the way I'm all for a tacking on a module to my proposed one that lets you make some skills not scale with level in exchange for extra scaling in the same number. This helps with character concepts a lot).
Hi, my name is Barry the Fighter!

That is correct, you heard me right, Barry the Fighter.

I wear platemail, and tons of it. Not just your average platemail, no, I wear what I like to call, "Double Plate!"

I am not good in stealthy situations because I wont dare part with my double plate.

So, because of this, I get left behind on sneaking missions and am told to wait outside, or at least wait for the signal.

I'm also pretty bashful & shy, and don't talk to people much.

Last time I talked to somebody, they raised prices on us at the bar!

So, because of this little mishap, I let the Bard take care of all the conversation work.

One day I met this Wizard, his name was Tim, he was a real nice fella.

Not a lick of muscle on that boy, I tell ya!

Tim traded me some potions for some of my jerky.

I make real great jerky!

Oh, one other thing before I go.

Since I don't part with my double plate, I also can't tumble worth crap, squeeze through tight spaces, or balance really well on slippery ice.

Did I mention I love my double plate?!?

And as you guessed, Barry was a simpleton with a 25 AC just from his double plate.

Barry had the envy of all the other fighters in the form of protection, but not in burden, as double plate weighed double the weight!
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Cleric Bob can't understand how he's no better at Religion than the day he started adventuring 20 years ago.
If he studied at all, he does know more. That can be adjudicated using Downtime activities and DM adjusted assumptions of what information requires no check to recall for Bob.

But there is is no reason he should be more knowledgeable about religions and religious history and myths just by virtue of having travelled and gotten in some fights.
 

Gadget

Explorer
To answer the OP, two words: Bounded Accuracy. Other editions had the scaling everything by level and they either produced a mad dash towards ever higher numbers (and vastly increased discrepancy between the “haves” and the “have nots”), or the “treadmill” of the numbers increasing but things staying pretty much the same. 5e has tried to make lower level threats relevant longer and with greater numbers and Bounded Accuracy is a part of that. Combine that with a design goal of keeping things relatively straightforward and less complex, and we have our current system, more or less.

That’s not to say it could not have been done better or there can’t be improvements. Weak saves become quite a liability as levels rise, and it wouldn’t hurt to give characters a better way to expand their proficiencies. Yet some would say that the former could be seen as a feature and there are ways to overcome the later (feats, down time training, ASI).

What I would not want is a more complex, 3x way of feats and skill point allocation for “gaming” the system. Congratulations, you have +25 in “use rope” skill, you’ve won D&D!
 
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Shiroiken

Adventurer
I wish I could sticky the following to the start of this inane thread. tl;dr version

OP: I don't like the current system, and feel it's unrealistic

Dissenting Commenters: It works out just fine mechanically, and there are some real world justifications

OP plus allied commenters: I still don't like the current system, and feel it's unrealistic

Repeat ad nasuem, adding various attacks/insults, devolving into strange caricature characters that supposedly prove one side or the other.

The simple solution, that should probably have been pointed out about 10 pages back: [MENTION=6795602]FrogReaver[/MENTION] feel free to houserule your game to add a modifier to non-proficient checks, attacks, and saves. It's probably unnecessary, but if it's what you feel is best for your game, then do it. Customizing 5E is probably the best aspect of it, since it works on a very solid chassis that is fairly modular.
 

Azzy

Cyclone Ranger
It does bother me that adding skills is no longer a part of character advancement outside of taking a feat. One of the things I enjoyed about 3.5 was adding skills to my character. I'm also not a big fan of mechanical reasons for chosing backgrounds, for example to make sure you get stealth or perception.

Why not just add a new skill alongside the standard four ASIs? Every class gets those so it's even across the board, and it has the merit of not needing to change anything else about the rules. Heck, why not just make every ASI stats plus a new a skill - the fighter could use the help anyway.
I house-ruled something similar: Gain one additional Skill Proficiency, Tool Proficiency, Weapon Proficiency, or Language every 3 Levels.

It was cribbed from 2e's handling of proficiencies, just manhandled a little.
 

dnd4vr

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
It's not really a bad example. In my world travels over the decades, I've been to a lot of concerts. From middle of nowhere Weird Al at a fairground concert, to 20,000 filled stadiums, to Rockfest, to 4 day long concerts in Amsterdam. A LOT of concerts. And you know what? I still don't have any clue how to play a guitar.
But I bet you can play a mean air-guitar! :)

Hi, my name is Tim, and I am a Wizard. My goal is to become really powerful in the ancient arts and learn old, powerful magics.
Wait?! Do you know about King Arthur's search for the Holy Grail while riding unreal horses as your lackies "clippity-clop" some coconut shells to sound like hooves? Did you ever encounter a crazy, killer rabbit with viscous pointy things?

Cleric Bob can't understand how he's no better at Religion than the day he started adventuring 20 years ago.
Didn't Cleric Bob form a foundation for increasing his understanding of Religion at level 1 by gaining proficiency then? If so, assuming he gained at least 4 levels in those 20 years, he would be better.
 

Azzy

Cyclone Ranger
So you all don’t believe that the level 20 adventurer tends to be naturally more perceptive than the level 1?
Not by pure nature of having more levels, no. If said fighter put actual effort into becoming more perceptive (higher Wis, gaining proficiency, or what not), then sure.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
But I bet you can play a mean air-guitar! :)
I actually suck, but my son is apparently a natural. He was 6 years old in the bathtub. I had the radio playing, and Hellraiser from Ozzy started. I look inside the bathroom and he's standing up, butt nekkid, playing an air guitar and head banging like he had been doing it for years. It was a proud dad moment :D
 

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