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Message: <blockquote data-quote="paradox42" data-source="post: 3410936" data-attributes="member: 29746">I haven't finished reading the thread to see if somebody else answered this, but I'm currently running an Epic game (7 characters of levels 30-32) and can attest to the fact that WotC's recommendations for EL start to break down around 15th level or so, particularly in cases where the party size is higher than the "standard" 4. Upper_Krust, who came up with the "Challenging Challenge Ratings" document that made it into Grim Tales as an appendix, arrived at the notion that high-level PCs can in fact take on creatures up to double their party level (in terms of CR at least) with some chance of victory. And more and more, as my PCs get higher, I find this to be true.The PCs in my Epic game were built using house rules that make for more powerful PCs than standard rules; for years I've assumed a "phantom level adjustment" of +2 when planning encounters for games in this homebrew setting. On top of that, there are 7 PCs (well above the standard of 4), and they're packed with powerful items (the group has quested for, and won, several Major Artifacts including the infamous Codex of the Infinite Planes). This group of 7 PCs recently fought against a CR 68 creature that I deliberately set up in an environment where it couldn't move effectively, and couldn't use all of its abilities to their best effect- and they won, though it nearly killed 5 of the 7 party members (they were saved only due to quick thinking on the part of the party psion who realized at the last second that he could use Damp Power as an immediate action to save everybody) and left both the party's sorceress and her Eidolon without any spell slots above 3rd level. Two party members, even after the psion's quick thinking to reduce the damage of its Death Throes explosion, were in single-digit hit points.But still- these were 32nd-level characters taking on a CR 68 creature. And they won. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />So yes, in your case, seeing 6 16th-level PCs- particularly if they're well-equipped- take on and defeat an EL 25 encounter is something I would not find particularly surprising. If they used up nearly all their resources doing it, aside from the one lost PC, then that's altogether more appropriate and expected.</blockquote>

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