Why *Dont* you like Forgotten Realms?

[Bluenose]

Anyway, you don't need to preach to the choir; I've said multiple times on this board that D&D (and de facto RPGs in general) don't model fiction very well.

Not necessarily. You don't see many people saying Pendragon is bad at modelling Arthurian romance novels. Plenty of people claim that their preferred Star Wars RPG does a good job of modelling the films. Qin seems to me to give a good 'feel' for Chinese stories - Tales of the Water Margin, Monkey, Romance of the Three Kingdoms - and legends. What these games have in common is they're trying to do one specific thing really well, which D&D is not. D&D aims at being useable for all sorts of fantasy, and doesn't quite get match perfectly to any of them.

However, fantasy RPGs are based on and inspired by -- along with other types of oral and written tradition -- fantasy fiction. And fantasy has certain tropes and cliches that it is associated with; for example, a player understands that a high magic world probably has lots of powerful wizards and magical items. If it doesn't, he might feel that the world is inconsistent with the traits and the image related to high/epic fantasy. Even though the standards are a bit different from fiction, fantasy RPGs (and the settings) are still "enslaved" by the genre. I also don't see any problem with Greyhawk having only a few high-level NPCs and lots of mid-level NPCs; it's a bit grittier than FR, and set between low and high fantasy (closer to high fantasy, though). FR is another beast; it *did* feature far less archmages (and other high level NPCs) originally, but I guess TSR wanted to radically distinguish it from Greyhawk (and yet I think my original point about 'high level characters vs. low level threats' still stands).

High levels of magic and high fantasy aren't the same thing. Lord of the Rings is high fantasy, on most definitions, but magic is quite rare. Eberron and Glorantha have very extensive uses of magic, but high fantasy they ain't.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I find it odd that people keep bringing up Greyhawk, which I also heavily dislike. But lets go into a few reasons why I hate FR.

1) I hate Hellenistic style pantheons. It bores me to tears that there's no mysteries regarding the gods, the afterlife, or faith in general. Why would anyone ever have a crises of faith? Just find a local priest to get a quick call into Torm and find out exactly what he feels about things. Holy wars? Over what? I exactly can't put you to the sword and demand you convert to the one true religion when your god can literally lean down and tell me to cut it out. And then you hit that there are evil gods, the most stupid idea imaginable. Hmm, do I worship the deity of love, kindness, understanding, and giving, or should I worship the deity of "sends all his believers to the hells." A tough decision to make!

2) There is and never has been and never will be "change" in the setting. Oh sure, there's the occasional apocalypse. But the setting itself stays the same. There's all these ancient ruins and magical artifacts lying around everywhere, and we're lead to believe that life, technology, societal advancement, magical research, and everything has just been at a stop for thousands if not millions of years? How utterly, utterly dull.

3) There's no mysteries, and yes I know I just said that in the first reason. Sorry, uncovering that the local thieves guild is really lead by an evil organization is somewhat meaningless when they all are. Want to stop a bad guy? Don't worry, there's two or three "secret" societies that everyone and their mom knows about. You can't walk ten feet in FR without tripping over a powerful and "mysterious" society, except there's nothing about them that's particularly secret, unknown, or, well, mysterious. Or heck, tie this into the other two. You find ancient ruins of a long lost civilization! ...Who are, apparently, just the same as people are in the modern era, and in the end, all you gain from it is an artifact that could've been made by the wizard down the street! A local hidden temple signifies a mystic and unknown religion. Wait, hold on, let me just cast...yeah...yeah, ok, Lathander says it's just Cyric cocking about again.

4) It doesn't make sense. So you have this super high magic world where there's an archmage on every block and a powerful cleric in every village, and yet there's all these kings and peasants? People are still building castles in a world where you can't see the sun through all the flying monsters and mages? Hell, there's apparently enough murderers for them to have their own god, despite the fact that any ol' cleric can just Speak to Dead and find out who killed them. In fact, why are there assassins in the first place when kings can just be raised from the dead without worry? Speaking of kings, there are merchants carting around powerful and arcane weaponry and yet the middle class has never bothered socially weakening the position of the kings?

5) Ed Greenwood is so creepy. He's like the ur-creephat grognard. Totally counts as a reason.

6) Woops, forgot to make things interesting! Maybe that's why the Realms are so Forgotten. THere's nothing that stands out (other then mediocrity). Like I said earlier, it's not so much a high fantasy setting based on medieval Europe, it's a high fantasy setting based on being a high fantasy setting. So much is borrowed wholestock from LotR without any of the reasoning behind the LotR developments. They took high fantasy and mythology and ancient history and took out everything that made it interesting. This isn't just FR mind you, it's a flaw in D&D as a whole.

You have these elves that are supposed to be better then humans because they were crafted by the archangels and to serve the song of the Creator. Except none of that is in D&D, elves are better "Well just because." So that bit of what could be interesting is dead. Half elves are amazing(ly rare) because the elves and humans are two different races, not only in their longevity, but in their very spiritual makeup. Except the aformentioned religious aspect of elves is gone, so that's also dead. Dwarves and elves have an antipathy for each other because the dwarves were a renegade-made race of an impatient archangel who wished to father his own children, but were set in a course of jealousy with the First Born, the elves. Only nope, that doesn't happen either - they just sorta hate each other because well they do. FR mentions that elves go to a mysteeerious island rather then "dying," except there's no reason for it.

I could go on.

 

[JohnRTroy]

5) Ed Greenwood is so creepy. He's like the ur-creephat grognard. Totally counts as a reason.

No.

See, this is where I draw the line with critics. I can understand people having their own personal judgments of the campaign, but I like to draw the line when it comes to people trying to conduct armchair psychoanalysis of the writers themselves.

When people say "I think Elmister/Drizz't is an uber-character with no flaws", that is a fair opinion. (Although I think people really need to read the novels to understand that these characters do have flaws.)

When people say things akin to Elminster and Drizzt are power-fantasies from their creators, that's where I draw the line. Trying to engage is figuring out the author's personality from the characters they write is an poor effort and you are more likely to projects your own judgement of the characters or the setting on the writers, and that to me is unfair and quite rude.

Keep the judgments of their works seperate from the judgments of the men and women who write them.

 

[IronWolf]

I find it odd that people keep bringing up Greyhawk, which I also heavily dislike. But lets go into a few reasons why I hate FR.

.... snipped ....

I could go on.

I'm not going to try to change your mind, as I've said elsewhere in this thread I fully understand not everyone is going to agree on campaign settings, I know there are several I could come up with long reasons of why I dislike them, but fully realize others may love them. Thank goodness for lots of campaign settings to choose from.

But I will say, it seems like the Realms you've played in is different than the one I have DM'ed in.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

I've got to say, every time I read another reason why someone hates the Realms I like it one more reason more. And I didn't start out finding the Realms all that interesting.

 

[Philosopher]

Because the deities of the Forgotten Realms were also crafted by as much of an imagination as possessed by our ancient ancestors who saw the gods as being as just as real as the gods of the Realms.

But the FR deities (as with all deities used in D&D) are designed for a game and for a set of stories. The imagination that created them had different interests than the ones that invented the gods of RW religions.

When gods war and play against each other, those relationships matter. Will these details be used? Not always, but they are there for when they are relevant, namely in how it affects the clergy and lay person.

Since I don't have any GH stuff handy and I haven't used it as my campaign in around 15 years, I don't really remember who is related to who so well, so I'm not going to be able to throw out GH-specific examples, but just noting that god A is the father of god B and god C actually does suggest a lot- given the other information you have.

Generally, you'll know the deity's status (greater, intermediate, lesser, demi-); alignment; and portfolio, at a minimum.

If you look at these in the context of familial relationships they can often be quite suggestive. They can really flesh out the relationship between those deities, which naturally fleshes out the way their priesthoods interact. That's the thing about details like this: even if the pcs don't care about them, they can still have an in-game effect. Plot hooks hang thick from the divine families.

One good example is if the parent deity is of lesser status than the child; there's something going on there. Another is close relatives of strongly opposed alignments.

Then focus on alliances and rivalries, agreements and disagreements between the gods, because that is what matters. And FR gods, for all their faults, have that.

It bores me to tears that there's no mysteries regarding the gods, the afterlife, or faith in general.

[...]

There's no mysteries

[...]

You can't walk ten feet in FR without tripping over a powerful and "mysterious" society, except there's nothing about them that's particularly secret, unknown, or, well, mysterious.

So you want there to be mystery. Okay, but...

You have these elves that are supposed to be better then humans because they were crafted by the archangels and to serve the song of the Creator. Except none of that is in D&D, elves are better "Well just because." So that bit of what could be interesting is dead. Half elves are amazing(ly rare) because the elves and humans are two different races, not only in their longevity, but in their very spiritual makeup. Except the aformentioned religious aspect of elves is gone, so that's also dead. Dwarves and elves have an antipathy for each other because the dwarves were a renegade-made race of an impatient archangel who wished to father his own children, but were set in a course of jealousy with the First Born, the elves. Only nope, that doesn't happen either - they just sorta hate each other because well they do. FR mentions that elves go to a mysteeerious island rather then "dying," except there's no reason for it.

... then you go on to complain that some things are left mysterious.

This isn't just FR mind you, it's a flaw in D&D as a whole.

So if you hate FR, then you must also hate D&D, which raises the question... Why do you care about any of this in the first place?

 

[Aldarc]

But the FR deities (as with all deities used in D&D) are designed for a game and for a set of stories. The imagination that created them had different interests than the ones that invented the gods of RW religions.

They may have different interests, but the net result should be approximately the same.

Then focus on alliances and rivalries, agreements and disagreements between the gods, because that is what matters. And FR gods, for all their faults, have that.

But the pantheon does not have the feeling of cohesion. And this would still do nothing to fix all the other reasons why I do not particularly care for Forgotten Realms, namely the aforementioned lack of any unifying theme, just generic high fantasy based on generic high fantasy.

So if you hate FR, then you must also hate D&D, which raises the question... Why do you care about any of this in the first place?

He does not appear to be saying this, but he can speak for himself.

 

[Clarabell]

I never use forgotten realms because as far as I'm concerned, that's someone else's story. I like creating my own worlds with my own stories.

 

[Azgulor]

So if you hate FR, then you must also hate D&D, which raises the question... Why do you care about any of this in the first place?

BS. I hate the FR, having abandoned it for the reasons I listed above but I like D&D/PF & other fantasy RPGs. While I like D&D as a RPG, I felt 2e & 3e embraced High Fantasy as a default power level making it more difficult to run a traditional swords-n-sorcery or pulp fantasy style game. I didn't hate D&D, I just had to tweak it as needed to suit my tastes. Insisting that a dislike of the FR must equate to a dislike of D&D isn't in the same universe as a well-reasoned conclusion.

D&D, with the possible exception of 4e (and I only say that as I'm not familiar enough with it to judge) could be tweaked to support a wide range of playstyles. This includes FR-style over the top high fantasy but there's nothing that requires one to run a campaign that way.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

So you want there to be mystery. Okay, but...



... then you go on to complain that some things are left mysterious.

Except the elf island thing isn't a mystery, it's "woops we forgot to add something interesting."

They just said "Elves in LotR go to an island, ours do too. OK DONE!" There's no mystery involved because it's utterly pointless.

So if you hate FR, then you must also hate D&D, which raises the question... Why do you care about any of this in the first place?

Hah hah, yes, ok, Forgotten Realms is D&D in it's entirety! I must've missed that memo somewhere along the way.

No.

Yes.

My problem is not with Elminster or with Drizzt (Come on Drizzt isn't even Ed Greenwood :|). It's with Ed himself being creepy.

Oh, I have issues with Elminster and Drizzt, mind you. But that's an entirely separate issue from the creepiness.