Why I think you should try 4e (renamed)

[ExploderWizard]

Isnt it the same thing?

Earlier editions: 9th level party meets a group of 1st level kobolds. Wizard uses fireball and inflcts 20 points of damage each. They are all dead since they had only 4 hit points.


4E: 9th level party meeds a group of 1st level kobolds. Wizard uses fireball and hits all of them. They are all dead since they where minions and die on a hit.

Any minion is a balloon or a pinata not a monster. Minions are constructed ego generation machines so that PC's have something to mow through quickly so that controllers can feel like they are making a meaningful contribution to the party.

 

[I'm A Banana]

You summed up the problem rather well.

You see only the math.

Well, the math clearly comes first in 4e design.

Up until 4e, the game was essentially descriptive. "Ah. You have a kobold. These are weak little creatures. Weak little creatures are described with the following statistics:"

Now, 4e is essentially mathmatecal. "Ah. You have a single level 1 monster filling the skirmisher role. Level 1 monsters filling the skirmisher role have the following statistics: (blah). If you'd like it to be special, here is a kobold ability you can add: (blah)."

What the numbers describe is an afterthought.

 

[Psion]

People keep using terms like 'simulationism' and 'narrativism' and clearly you're not all talking about the same thing. It makes for a garbled discussion and is my second biggest reason for not liking the terms.

When Ron Edwards used the term 'simulationist' you're exactly the kind of guy he was talking about. Kind of ironic. For a quick but incomplete explanation see this page.

Just to be perfectly clear, I don't use Ron Edwards or the Forge as the source of my lexicon. Particularly where "simulationism" is concerned, which seemed to be a dumping ground for "badwrongfun" gaming on the forge.

You'll notice I almost never use the term narratavism; that term was coined at The Forge.

But Simulation in regards to RPGs was a term used at the height of RPG discussion on usenet (particularly rec.games.frp.advocacy, but its sister groups as well). And the term put forth in John Kim's threefold model there does seem to have a good deal of correspondence with the way most people not steeped in forge terminology seem to understand and use it.

 

[cangrejoide]

Any minion is a balloon or a pinata not a monster. Minions are constructed ego generation machines so that PC's have something to mow through quickly so that controllers can feel like they are making a meaningful contribution to the party.

Exactly the same function a level 1 monster vs a 9th level party does in earlier editions. Same thing.

 

[AllisterH]

And this discussion was going so interesting....

Silverblade, even as a 4e fan, I think you're being a tad incidenary (sp?)

re: Minions

Seriously, I'm not sure why anyone would use a lower level monster as a minion since that isn't their purpose IMO. A minion to my understanding are supposed to represent mooks. a.k.a potentially dangerous to the PC but one good hit makes them fall over

(funny thing about minions, I always saw minions as the most realistic mechanic across all editions....Most creatures do go down with one hit of a battleaxe - the "hero" is the one that can take multiple battleaxes to the face)

 

[BryonD]

Why did the unarmored pirate have an AC of 21? So an appropriate-level striker would have to roll a 10 or better to hit him, obviously. So it's basically Elder Scrolls: Oblivion or something where the whole world scales with the party.

In 4E the world is built to fit the combat system.

 

[AllisterH]

In 4E the world is built to fit the combat system.

Again I'll ask.

Why did you have no problem in previous editions with escalating attack bonus (especially given the existence of the wizard who in most cases past 1st level never would wield a weapon) yet have a problem with escalating defenses?

Why exactly should a leve1 10/CR 10 monster be as easy to hit as a level 1/CR 1 monster since everything else about the former has increased...

 

[ExploderWizard]

Exactly the same function a level 1 monster vs a 9th level party does in earlier editions. Same thing.

Not really. A first level monster vs a 9th level party was indeed a scrub but the function mechanically speaking was a bit different.

In AD&D hit points were hit points (no matter if you viewed them as abstract or not). A creature had X hit points and that was that.

A 4E minion has one hit point but that one hit point is subjective. When is a hit point not a hit point? When a minion gets caught in a fireball from a 9th level caster who rolls a miss.

In older editions a "miss" with such a spell was equal to the monster making a save. It is hilarious when minions and regular mooks are in a mixed group and the battered/damaged mooks die from a "missed" fireball attack but the minion who has perhaps 1/8 the hit points is just fine.

Special rules for interacting with the universe make minions a joke rather than monsters.

 

[BryonD]

Again I'll ask.

Why did you have no problem in previous editions with escalating attack bonus (especially given the existence of the wizard who in most cases past 1st level never would wield a weapon) yet have a problem with escalating defenses?

Why exactly should a leve1 10/CR 10 monster be as easy to hit as a level 1/CR 1 monster since everything else about the former has increased...

Who said I have a problem with escalating defenses?

 

[Hairfoot]

Any minion is a balloon or a pinata not a monster. Minions are constructed ego generation machines so that PC's have something to mow through quickly so that controllers can feel like they are making a meaningful contribution to the party.

Sigworthy.