D&D 5E Why is animate dead considered inherently evil?

I'm having a troublesome time understanding why the animate dead spell is considered evil. When I read the manual it states that the spall imbues the targeted corpse with a foul mimicry of life, implying that the soul is not a sentient being who is trapped in a decaying corpse. Rather, the spell does exactly what its title suggests, it only animates the corps. Now of course one could use the spell to create zombies that would hunt and kill humans, but by that same coin, they could create a labor force that needs no form of sustenance (other than for the spell to be recast of course). There have also been those who have said "the spell is associated with the negative realm which is evil", however when you ask someone why the negative realm is bad that will say "because it is used for necromancy", I'm sure you can see the fallacy in this argument.

However, I must take into account that I have only looked into the DnD magic system since yesterday so there are likely large gaps in my knowledge. PS(Apon further reflection I've decided that the animate dead spell doesn't fall into the school of necromancy, as life is not truly given to the corps, instead I believe this would most likely fall into the school of transmutation.) PPS(I apologize for my sloppy writing, I've decided I'm feeling too lazy to correct it.)
 

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Vaalingrade

Legend
I always thought it was strange that, if Druids are opposed to undead, that they lack any direct anti-undead abilities. Druids don't turn undead or have an "anti-death shell" spell in their list. They have to use the same tools they use against anything else to destroy the undead.

Curiously, 3.5 supplements actually had stuff that aimed Druids at Aberrations more than undead.
Probably because despite later attempts to make undead super evil abominations, most pre-late stage 3.5 undead are naturally-occurring based on the method of death. Undead might be unholy, but they mostly arise from a natural process if not created by a spell or vaguely-defined self-ritual.

Then Keith came in with Eberron and gave druids a real arch nemesis in the form of Lovecraft's sloppy leftovers that hadn't previously had a reason for being aside from populating the Far Realms and appealing to the tentacle set.
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
The druid is all about the natural balance. The original AD&D PHB druid was shades closer to the Celtic origins than the current version - but contained no reference to an opposition to undead. The same is true of 2nd edition. However, those of us that played in that era often interpreted that druids should oppose undead heavily as it was against the natural order. For many, the druid stance against undead is obvious, prominent, and significant - not because someone told us, but because it just makes so much sense.
Many of us went a different direction and made Druids - already a sub-class of Cleric - into Clerics in fact: they get their powers etc. divinely just like Clerics do (and often from the same deities) but use an almost-completely different spell list and come with other built-in features and drawbacks.
And as this is an RPG, and RPGs work best with good storytelling, and good storytelling often relies upon conflict ... it feels like a gap to not have that oppositional anti-druid that turned their back on the ideals of the druids for some reason and aligns with the exact oppositie.
This assumes most/all Druids have the same ideals in the first place, and that's a very big assumption.

You can have evil Druids, good Druids, etc., no problem there (that 1e RAW forced them all to be pure Neutral never sat right with me). But they still all work on the same chassis both mechanical and metaphysical, just like good and evil Mages or good and evil Clerics.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Maybe it is just me, but I'd call that a "Sunlit Green" ... just like the image label calls it.
It falls in the sage green range. I bet Lexus just didn't want something so mundane and picked something that sounded better and is frankly, nonsensical. Any shade of green can be lit up by the sun, while still being different shades of green. LOL
If you want to end the discussion, I'd go stop by a paint store, ask for paint samples in each color, drive to a divorce attorney to get ready for the obvious outcome, and then go place the two samples on the car and call the wife over.
My 12th anniversary is coming up in a few months. I made it this long by NOT making those kinds of mistakes. :p
My biggest question about all of this: Druids are all about nature, balance, etc... However, when we see a thematic element in a class, we also often see versions appear in antithesis to the core concept. Anti-paladins or Oath Breakers, for example. Where are the dark druids that animate dead and oppose the natural order? Where are the anti-druids?

In my setting, druids are tied to the Weave of magic that originates in the Positive Energy Plane and flows through all things until it reaches the core of the Negative Energy Plane. Powerful druids strive to bring balance to the Weave - and as the forces of darkness are usually ahead in the battle of good and evil tied to the Weave, they tend towards the magics of more positive energies ... now. However, in times of great prosperity in the past where the forces of darkness were at risk of being stamped out, the Druids found their role to require them to blight out the Light, embrace the Dark and show nature's ability to consume, destroy and kill. Some (a homebrew subclass) of those druids did this through becoming Anti-Druids, effectively, and animating the dead. Some used pure necormancy, others used spores like mycanoids, others corrupted fey and forced them to possess corpses. While these buggers are rare in the 'modern era' of my campaign, there are a few ... and when I use them as villains, they tend to be really popular with my players. The necromancer druid is an archetype that D&D has not done that much around, but it really works cohesively in the way that Anti-Paladins did for decades.

Critical Role has the Circle of the Blighted. That touches on dark themes, but not raising the dead. Circle of Spores can animate dead weakly - once they get to 6th level they can make 2 to 6 zombies ... but they each last only an hour and you have to wait for a long rest to bring them back.

That is not enough to build a necromancer style archetype around. I built a homebrew subclass that enacts my goals - primarily intended for use by NPCs.

Circle of the Dark -

2nd level: Your ties to the dark and undeath infuses you with the ability to cast certain spells. At 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th and 15th level you gain access to circle spells connected to undeath and shadow.

2: Find Familiar (see below), Shadow Veil* (All nonmagical light sources within 100 feet of your location are reduced - bright light becomes dim, dim becomes nonmagical dark, upcast to increase radius impacted by 20 feet, 1 hour duration, no concentration, immobile, spell not blocked by barriers)
3: Phantasmal Force, Death's Dark Mask* (Like Darkness, but upcasting increases radius by 5' - can't be cast on a moveable object)
5: Animate Dead*, Speak with Dead
7: Wall of Bone* (a weaker version of wall of thorns - but with bones - upcast similar to wall of thorns), Wraithform (similar to fly, blur, freedom of movement and able to go through small openings for 1 minute, concentration)
9: Danse Macabre*, Enervation*
11: Create Undead*
13: Finger of Death
15: Horrid Wilting*

* indicates the spell can be upcast - which is important for thre 6th level ability.

You gain a bonus homebrew cantrip that deals 1d6 necrotic damage, inflicts a critical hit on incapacitated targets, and gives the caster temp hp equal to half the damage done by the spell if the target dies from the hit (limited by max hp of the target). This cantrip is only avaiable to PCs with this subclass (so a bard can't take it, etc...).

Additionally, you are proficienct with a Scythe (heavy, d6, versatile for d8, two handed, slashing) and may use it as a weapon when casting Shilellagh.

Further, whenever you cast find familiar, you gain an undead familiar with the attributes of a normal animal familiar except the type is undead and it gains one of three abilities: Flight with a 30' speed, Blindsight 10', or Gaseous form (as the spell) once per LR for 1 minute. It is visibly undead and horrific.

Finally, you may communicate telepathically with any undead you control or create with a druid class feature, and you gain the Warlock Invocation Gaze of Two Minds, but it works on undead instead of humanoids.

6th level: When you cast any of the 13 bonus spells granted by the subclass, treat the spell as if you used a spell slot 1 levels higher. If you actually use a higher spell slot to cast the spell, double the increase in effective spell level for using the higher slot. For example, animate dead with a 3rd level slot is cast as if a 4th level spell slot was used. If a 4th level slot is used, the increase of 1 level results in 2 additional bonus levels for an effective level of 6th. If animate dead is cast using a 9th level spell slot, the effective spell level is 16th for 27 skeletons/zombies. A 9th level Shadow Veil (a 1st level spell) has an effective spell level of 18th and covers a radius of 440 feet.

Additionally, you can summon a shadow scythe as an action. It deals necrotic instead of slashing, is treated as a magical weapon, and if you hit with the attack you may use a bonus action to steal the shadow of a target that was in bright light when hit. The shadow becomes a shadow (as phb) under your control for 10 minutes, until you create another shadow, or until the target creature dies (whichever comes first).

You also treat magical darkness as if the magical darkness was bright light (at any distance). All magical darknes treated as bright light effectively creates dim light for you around it in twice the radius of the magical darkness. Other creatures, including your undead, do not benefit from this vision.

10th level: You can cast the find greater steed using spell slots, but the steed has an undead type, gains blindsight 10 feet, deals extra necorotic damage equal to your proficiency modifier when it hits with an attack, and regenerates 1 hp per minute if it has 1 hp or more.

Additionally, as an action, you may take control of large numbers of undead. Target all uncontrolled undead creatures you can see within 60 feet of you. The targets must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the targets must obey your commands for the next 24 hours, or until you uses this ability again. An undead whose challenge rating is equal to or greater than the druid’s class level is immune to this effect. Any abilities that impacts the saving throw for a turn ability also impact this saving throw.

Further, You lose your normal type and instead become undead.

14th level: You may travel to the Shadowfell from any plane, or from the Shadowfell to the prime material plane. Both require only an action. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
I think that's great. Having druids that personify all aspects of nature, even the cruel or evil ones is a great thing.

One of my favorite subclasses is the circle of spores druid. The spore ability just uses the zombie stat block, but nothing else. It's giving motion to the corpse, but not the drive to murder or the connection to the negative plane. Is it evil? Maybe yes, maybe no. But evil druids are out there, so even if it is evil, it's natural and not unnatural.

The Animate Dead spell being on the class list is more problematic, but I'd as DM alter the spell so that it used the spores to animate them and not the negative plane. That wouldn't be RAW, though.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
We can easily do Undead focused Clerics, Paladins, Sorcerers, Warlocks and Wizards. It just seems odd that Druids don't really get to do so. heck, it is easier to build a Bard Necromancer than a Druid one.
It doesn't seem odd to me at all. Druids, all of them, embody aspects of nature. Undead are the opposite of nature/natural. Even the ones created by the spore druid special ability aren't really undead, but instead just use the zombie stat block.

Of course for your personal setting it can and is different. My view is from a RAW perspective.
 


ECMO3

Hero
It doesn't seem odd to me at all. Druids, all of them, embody aspects of nature. Undead are the opposite of nature/natural. Even the ones created by the spore druid special ability aren't really undead, but instead just use the zombie stat block.

I think they are undead. They use the Zombie stat block which includes creature type. So a Cleric can turn them, an oathbreaker Paladin can control them, Protection from Evil and Good works on them etc.

If they are not undead what creature type are they?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I always thought it was strange that, if Druids are opposed to undead, that they lack any direct anti-undead abilities. Druids don't turn undead or have an "anti-death shell" spell in their list. They have to use the same tools they use against anything else to destroy the undead.

Curiously, 3.5 supplements actually had stuff that aimed Druids at Aberrations more than undead.
Druids aren't anti undead so much as pro nature. That's why their spells focus on the natural and improving nature.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I think they are undead. They use the Zombie stat block which includes creature type. So a Cleric can turn them, an oathbreaker Paladin can control them, Protection from Evil and Good works on them etc.

If they are not undead what creature type are they?
Fair enough. They are still not powered by the negative plane and don't have the drive to murder like normal zombies do.
 

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