D&D 5E Why is animate dead considered inherently evil?

[Tolerable Tyrant]

I'm having a troublesome time understanding why the animate dead spell is considered evil. When I read the manual it states that the spall imbues the targeted corpse with a foul mimicry of life, implying that the soul is not a sentient being who is trapped in a decaying corpse. Rather, the spell does exactly what its title suggests, it only animates the corps. Now of course one could use the spell to create zombies that would hunt and kill humans, but by that same coin, they could create a labor force that needs no form of sustenance (other than for the spell to be recast of course). There have also been those who have said "the spell is associated with the negative realm which is evil", however when you ask someone why the negative realm is bad that will say "because it is used for necromancy", I'm sure you can see the fallacy in this argument.

However, I must take into account that I have only looked into the DnD magic system since yesterday so there are likely large gaps in my knowledge. PS(Apon further reflection I've decided that the animate dead spell doesn't fall into the school of necromancy, as life is not truly given to the corps, instead I believe this would most likely fall into the school of transmutation.) PPS(I apologize for my sloppy writing, I've decided I'm feeling too lazy to correct it.)

 

[Stormonu]

Just out of curiosity, why not? Does animate objects not work on organic matter in your setting, so no animating wooden tables? Are items made from whalebone exempt?

Do you draw the line at things that were crafted and made into objects or is it the material itself?

Anything that had a soul. Wood could be animated, as well as corpses that's been rendered to components (leather, whalebone, etc.) But not a dead Treant (or a living one). While the corpse is mostly intact, the animus rejects the "animating spirit" with the same hostility (and divine contract) that prevents you from using Animate Object on someone still alive.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Are we talking generic core lore or setting specific lore? Because specific settings can and should tweak base assumptions at some point. But you have to have a starting point and generally agreed upon morality as defined by modern western civilization is that starting point so that people have a base understanding of what to expect unless it's specifically changed. Any guidelines or assumptions will always be quite broad, of course but you have to have a foundation to start from.

That goes back to the popularity argument, some assumptions are made because they are the most common assumptions people will make about a generic fantasy world. I think the game has to use some of these core assumptions so that most people can relate to it.

You can have a base setting in the core, as long as you make it clear that its assumptions are assumptions, and the rules themselves support looking at those assumptions with an open mind and perhaps a jaundiced eye.

 

[Voadam]

you are abusing the laws of reality by making dead things get up and walk around. been considered evil since Myth's were created.

THIS is why it's evil.

Can you tell me the myths you are referring to?

The closest thing to armies of dead corpses attacking that I can think of is Norse Mythology with Hel leading an army of the dead out of Niflheim to join the giants in attacking the gods at Asgard. This is counterbalanced however with Odin and Freyja leading armies of dead warriors heroically in the last stand against the giants and unworthy dead.

I think there are a couple of Greek stories about heroes calling up the dead by going to an underworld entrance and making sacrifices and getting to talk to the dead then gaining needed information as part of the plot.

My understanding is that necromancers being black magicians calling up D&D style skeletons and corpses as warrior minions is generally a modern fantasy thing, not something from the times when ancient myths were created.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Everybody has a source for objective morality in real life. it's called the culture you grew up in.

Except, of course, it's not objective. It's just what they know.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Sure. And I admit my position on this is influenced by the fact that I like subverting tropes. In my game it is more likely that a creepy necromancer is a misunderstood hero and a paladin in a shining armour turns out to be a judgemental bigot. Granted, you shouldn't overdo this as then the subversion itself becomes the trope.

Agreed, and if you like subverting tropes, you need a norm from which to deviate.

I feel like D&D has often struggled with where to set the norms (not just how much to make it white knights vs black robed cultists, but also things like how medieval to keep technology, how wedded to real world physics, etc.). Also with how best to communicate that you are both free and encouraged to modify them. I think the ambivalence about whether there even is an implied setting (IMO there is, but how much weight it should be given is not clear) to the game is a big issue. 2nd edition was perhaps strongest in saying, in effect, 'here's a default, but it's a soft one. Please make the game what you want it to be (in fact, here are several green-bound books and boxed sets where fundamental qualities of the game are completely voided or changed around)'.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That is not an absolute - it depends upon what the game designers are trying to do.

Also, need we note that the "outdated" nature of the moral system is... well, there's a whole lot of room for discussion on that.*

If one of the goals of producing the setting is to get people to ask the moral question about use of the undead, then leaving it ambiguous, or going against the common trope, is a solid choice.

But, if the authors are not interested in that question, then taking a solid stance on it allows them instead to allow focus to fall on whatever things they do want the audience thinking about.




*For example... anyone here watch the Amazon series, Upload?

Spoiler: Some bits about the show

It posits a world in which those who are about to die can upload their brain patterns into a virtual universe. One major point they make in the series is that those who have been uploaded are not allowed to vote, work, or the like. They get to hang out in their virtual world, but not have any economic or political connection to the real world.

So, what happens when the corporation that runs the virtual environment starts using uploading to create a slave race of virtual beings, or change who is available to vote in real-world elections?

Very interesting show, Upload. Lots to think about.

 

[James Gasik]

Anything that had a soul. Wood could be animated, as well as corpses that's been rendered to components (leather, whalebone, etc.) But not a dead Treant (or a living one). While the corpse is mostly intact, the animus rejects the "animating spirit" with the same hostility (and divine contract) that prevents you from using Animate Object on someone still alive.

Ok, thank you for clarifying.

 

[Oofta]

You can have a base setting in the core, as long as you make it clear that its assumptions are assumptions, and the rules themselves support looking at those assumptions with an open mind and perhaps a jaundiced eye.

There's advice to make the game your own repeatedly. Most people, and campaign settings, change things large and small. It's one of the reasons I like D&D.

 

[Lanefan]

What you're gonna do with it then? Fry marshmallows?

Over the years I've seen fireballs cast to:

--- burn away dangerous gases
--- provide a blast of heat to a very cold area
--- clear ground cover
--- start a forest fire (sometimes intentionally, other times not)
--- act as a signal flare ("we're over here!") or distraction ("look this way while you get attacked from behind")

 

[Oofta]

Over the years I've seen fireballs cast to:

--- burn away dangerous gases
--- provide a blast of heat to a very cold area
--- clear ground cover
--- start a forest fire (sometimes intentionally, other times not)
--- act as a signal flare ("we're over here!") or distraction ("look this way while you get attacked from behind")

But what if I really like roasted marshmallows?